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  1. Vince Tortelli is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/16/2007 1:46pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Porygon and Omanyte

    I was rolling with another white Belt at my BJJ gym, and he started to pass my guard, however, I was able to secure a half guard with a lockdown/grape vine. A purple belt who was watching the rolling then read me the riot act over using the half guard, telling me that it would get me crushed if there was striking allowed. His solution was to turn turtle whenever your guard is being passed, as you have more options from this position???

    Also, he said that the lockdown was easy to beat, all the person on top needed to do was stand up (which he had the other guy do as a demo) and my legs would be locked in place and I would be helpless.

    Now, I didn't argue with him because he's a purple and I'm a white, but....WTF? It seems to me that standing up in half guard just opens you up to a whole lot of leg locks and sweeps. Also, turtle is better than half guard as regards striking? Huh? Any advice/comments would be appreciated.
  2. conorjs13 is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/16/2007 1:51pm


     Style: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Turtle is probably the world's least effective defensive position short of lying on your back with your limbs spread out. If you have half guard directly under your opponent and you can at least grab his other leg with your arm he can't kick you and he has to seriously compromise his balance to punch you.

    I'd agree with you about half-guard allowing you to sweep/ankle lock. I'd never voluntarily give up a half guard to go to turtle. It makes sense for sport Judo and that's about it.
  3. KayRoc is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/16/2007 1:59pm


     Style: Crappling (BJJ Hiatus)

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hmm. He has a bit of a point; unless you are keeping him hugged close in halfguard, he can rain strikes down on you.

    I have been trying out the turtle more and more once someone is passing my guard: turtle, then roll back into them regaining the guard. See the Shogun vs. Griffin fight to understand what I am talking about. It can open you up to getting back mounted, so work on your back control escapes. I have pulled off a few toelocks and kneebars on people who get too careless when they are trying to get back mount.
  4. conorjs13 is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/16/2007 2:13pm


     Style: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by KayRoc
    I have been trying out the turtle more and more once someone is passing my guard: turtle, then roll back into them regaining the guard. See the Shogun vs. Griffin fight to understand what I am talking about. It can open you up to getting back mounted, so work on your back control escapes. I have pulled off a few toelocks and kneebars on people who get too careless when they are trying to get back mount.


    Okay, it can work, but I think it's just too easy to get torn apart from, especially if you're wearing a gi. You can't see ****, you have to feel when your opponent is moving/figure out what he's planning, and as soon as you start to move, he can just grab on to some cloth and put pressure onto your back. And w/o gi? A strong guy, like someone with a wrestling background, will spin around and slap an anaconda on you in a heartbeat.

    Turtling up feels to me like the grappling equivalent of a boxer holding his hands up to his head and taking shot after shot until he gets seriously messed up.
  5. Teh El Macho is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/16/2007 2:28pm

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     Style: creonte on hiatus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Vince Tortelli
    I was rolling with another white Belt at my BJJ gym, and he started to pass my guard, however, I was able to secure a half guard with a lockdown/grape vine. A purple belt who was watching the rolling then read me the riot act over using the half guard, telling me that it would get me crushed if there was striking allowed. His solution was to turn turtle whenever your guard is being passed, as you have more options from this position???

    Also, he said that the lockdown was easy to beat, all the person on top needed to do was stand up (which he had the other guy do as a demo) and my legs would be locked in place and I would be helpless.

    Now, I didn't argue with him because he's a purple and I'm a white, but....WTF? It seems to me that standing up in half guard just opens you up to a whole lot of leg locks and sweeps. Also, turtle is better than half guard as regards striking? Huh? Any advice/comments would be appreciated.
    That was fucking stupid of his part. You are training jits, not MMA.

    His comment was completely out of line, and it would have been more appropriate if this was an MMA class, or your primary objective is MMA and you just happen to be taking jits to improve your ground game for MMA.

    Next thing he's going to read you the riot act when you go you start your jits standing without covering your head. OH NOEZ!!11 YOU ARE GONNA GET CLOCKED IF STRIKES WERE ALLOWED. :eusa_doh:
    Read this for flexibility and injury prevention, this, this and this for supplementation, this on grip conditioning, and this on staph. New: On strenght standards, relationships and structural balance. Shoulder problems? Read this.

    My crapuous vlog and my blog of training, stuff and crap. NEW: Me, Mrs. Macho and our newborn baby.

    New To Weight Training? Get the StrongLifts 5x5 program and Rippetoe's "Starting Strength, 2nd Ed". Wanna build muscle/gain weight? Check this article. My review on Tactical Nutrition here.

    t-nation - Dissecting the deadlift. Anatomy and Muscle Balancing Videos.

    The street argument is retarded. BJJ is so much overkill for the street that its ridiculous. Unless you're the idiot that picks a fight with the high school wrestling team, barring knife or gun play, the opponent shouldn't make it past double leg + ground and pound - Osiris
  6. Vince Tortelli is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/16/2007 2:30pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Purple belt aside, I have to agree with Cono...Turtle position seems WORSE than half guard, or for that matter bottom of side control. The other guy can take your back easily, go for a crucifix, clock choke (with gi), or just knee strike/soccer kick you to death (in a street fight, or the PRIDE fighting championships).
  7. cyrijl is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/16/2007 2:31pm

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     Style: BJJ, MT, Yoga

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    THE TURTLE IS NOT A POSITION. (arhg).

    So, instead of facing him and maybe blocking punches, you should turtle up and take hits to the body and back of the head unable to see what is going on. Not only is he ignoring the self-defense aspect of bjj, he is giving you advice under one set (although very common these days) of MMA rules.
  8. Vince Tortelli is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/16/2007 2:37pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh El Macho
    That was fucking stupid of his part. You are training jits, not MMA.

    His comment was completely out of line, and it would have been more appropriate if this was an MMA class, or your primary objective is MMA and you just happen to be taking jits to improve your ground game for MMA.

    Next thing he's going to read you the riot act when you go you start your jits standing without covering your head. OH NOEZ!!11 YOU ARE GONNA GET CLOCKED IF STRIKES WERE ALLOWED. :eusa_doh:
    Well, a couple of the higher belts are real big on "This is Gracie Jiu Jitsu! It is for war in the streets, not that sissy ring fighting BJJ ****!" Yet weirdly enough, we almost never start standing up...maybe the idea is that you take a knee in the street, and the other guy will follow? Anyway, I agree it is much better to be in full guard than half in MMA, but I don't think it's a good idea to ignore the position and say "Go turtle! Go turtle!" instead. But again, I didn't want to argue with a purple belt over it.
  9. Teh El Macho is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/16/2007 2:45pm

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     Style: creonte on hiatus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The thing is that half guard is a position that can happen, and one needs to learn how to use it. The purple's argument will make sense (going along with GJJ is for war!!!) if your average street punk would know what to do if he's in your half guard. But he won't, which negates the purple's argument.

    You did the right thing though, in to arguing with the purple. No need to deal with the hassle. Just roll with it, and make the best of your training, which is good and legit anyways.
    Read this for flexibility and injury prevention, this, this and this for supplementation, this on grip conditioning, and this on staph. New: On strenght standards, relationships and structural balance. Shoulder problems? Read this.

    My crapuous vlog and my blog of training, stuff and crap. NEW: Me, Mrs. Macho and our newborn baby.

    New To Weight Training? Get the StrongLifts 5x5 program and Rippetoe's "Starting Strength, 2nd Ed". Wanna build muscle/gain weight? Check this article. My review on Tactical Nutrition here.

    t-nation - Dissecting the deadlift. Anatomy and Muscle Balancing Videos.

    The street argument is retarded. BJJ is so much overkill for the street that its ridiculous. Unless you're the idiot that picks a fight with the high school wrestling team, barring knife or gun play, the opponent shouldn't make it past double leg + ground and pound - Osiris
  10. Vince Tortelli is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/16/2007 2:53pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yeah, argumenative purple belt aside, it's a cool school and I enjoy training there.

    PS: What's the consensus on "defeat the lockdown by standing up?"
    PPS: Isn't that the guy from that TLC documentary 'The Man Whose Arms Exploded" in your avatar?
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