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  1. Airman Kai is offline
    Airman Kai's Avatar

    AK: Giving new meaning to the word "Unfair."

    Join Date
    Jun 2006
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    Scott AFB, IL
    Posts
    1,536

    Posted On:
    11/15/2007 3:54pm


     Style: Out-Of-Shape MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    "Dragon Dojo stays in the shadows" or "How the heck am I supposed to review schools?"

    So, some of you may have seen another thread I started over at YMAS, a poll that asked which school in the Panama City, FL area I should go and do a Dojo Review on.

    http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=62055

    Dragon Dojo was, by leaps and bounds, the winner, so I began to open up lines of communication with it's owner and head instructor, Robert Wiest. I was unable to get in touch with him for about a week, but yesterday, I managed to get him on the phone.

    Summarized conversation is as follows:

    KAI: Hello, sir. I'd like to come to your school and do an objective review that will be published at a website forum that I frequent.
    ROB: Huh, a forum? That's where everybody can talk about things, right?
    KAI: Yah, yah it is.
    ROB: Ooooh, well, ya see, I've been to one of these online forums that you're talking about, and I can't say I liked it very much. It was very negative, and people were saying things that weren't very nice. I mean, being a martial artist requires a person to have good morals and judgement, as well, so all that negativity was really just identifying them as not being actual martial artists, just guys who fight.
    KAI: Right... well, I assure you, this forum has it's share of frivolous nonsense, but at it's core is a community of people that are passionate about martial arts. There are people of all martial backgrounds on this site. We've got Kung Fu, Karate, TKD, hell, we even have Ninjas. Most of the focus is on competitive use of these, though.
    ROB: Yah, I see what you're saying, but it just kind of puts me off, ya know? I mean, you ever watch that one show with the guys who fight in the UFC and they live in that house and drink beer and fight each other? If it's like that, I wouldn't want to be a part of that, ya know? I'd actually rather you not write anything about me at all just yet.
    KAI: So, at this point, you're not inclined to have me come to your school?
    ROB: No, not at this time. How about this: send me the link to the forum, and I'll think about it.
    KAI: I see. I'll send you that email immediatly.
    ROB: Thanks. Hey, look, if you wanna come and take a free class or two, that's fine.
    KAI: Really? That sounds great. Tomorrow, then?
    ROB: Sure, sounds good.
    KAI: I bet there are few people who would be interested to know that I'm indeed visiting your school. Mind if I post that info on the forum?
    ROB: I'd rather you not, I don't want my name out there in the open until I'm sure about this, ok?
    KAI: Wait... really? I'm just going to say that I'll be visiting your school. I won't post a review or anything if you don't want me to.
    ROB: Still, I'd prefer that you didn't.
    KAI: Uh... ok, then.
    ROB: Are we cool? I'm not trying to be a jerk, here, it's just that the internet is an angry place, ya know?
    KAI: Ya, yah, I get what you're saying.
    ROB: Ok, cool.
    KAI: So, see you tomorrow, then?
    ROB: Looking forward to it!
    KAI: Awesome, see you then. Bye.
    ROB: Bye.

    So, today, I was ready to drive 45 min to his school, when I got this email:

    My partners and I have discussed your request. We've looked at your website and upon further discussion, we are not comfortable with what you do with your website. We do not wish to participate in it. We appreciate the opportunity, however, being that you are not interested in signing up for classes, we believe it would be a waste of your time to come to our school. We are not comfortable having a representative of this website at our school. Thanks again for the opportunity. Peace and happiness on your journey.

    Have a great day! Robbie

    “To each their own journey”

    www.waycenter.com

    1-888-353-9414
    To which I responded:
    Sir,

    I am severely disappointed at this decision. I feel it is a personal insult that you would invite me to your school and then, through email, inform me that because I am not a source of income, I am not welcome at your school. Although I was intending to honor your request to not discuss these matters at Bullshido, the level of disrespect you have shown me has caused me to reconsider that decision, and thusly, I will indeed be discussing this on an open forum. You have already stated that the site is irrelevant to you, and that you do not care if I write positive or negative things about you or your school. This is good, because I will most assuredly be writing negative things about you and your school.

    Again, I cannot overstate how disappointing your decision is. However, as you say, “To each their own journey.” Your refusal is tantamount to hiding in a corner, and if you’re ok with that, than I bid you peace and happiness on your journey.
    So, while we could ENDLESSLY get into the Dragon Dojo, I have a different question...

    How am I supposed to expose BS when the BSers run scared? Is it to the point where I have to go stealth? I mean, seriously, is dishonesty the ony way to get into their school?
    Last edited by Airman Kai; 11/15/2007 4:01pm at .



  2. Airman Kai is offline
    Airman Kai's Avatar

    AK: Giving new meaning to the word "Unfair."

    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Scott AFB, IL
    Posts
    1,536

    Posted On:
    11/15/2007 4:10pm


     Style: Out-Of-Shape MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I consider this pictorial more than adequate proof that a fairly adanced LARPfest has developed under his watch.






    The Code of the Ukejutsu Martial Artist

    Know yourself.
    Do not think dishonestly.
    Always follow through.
    The way is in training.
    Become acquainted with every art.
    Respect.
    Study the ways of all professions.
    Hold strong convictions.
    Distinguish between gain and loss in worldly matters.
    Live without regrets.
    Develop intuitive judgment and understanding for everything.

    Make a good first impression.
    Perceive those things which cannot be seen.
    Don’t cling to the past.
    Pay attention even to trivial things.
    Never break a promise.
    Do nothing which is of no use.
    Don’t depend on other people.
    Don’t speak ill of others.
    More faith than fear.
    Respect the opinions of others.
    Be first to seize the opportunity.
    Have a plan for your life.
    Never lose your “beginner’s spirit”.
    Hold in your heart the importance of family.



  3. kismasher is offline

    Light Heavyweight

    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    NW Arkansas
    Posts
    2,524

    Posted On:
    11/15/2007 4:10pm

    supporting member
     Style: fitness

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    channel the spirit of bunyip
  4. cyrijl is offline
    cyrijl's Avatar

    Light Heavyweight

    Join Date
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    Location
    Boston, MA
    Posts
    3,796

    Posted On:
    11/15/2007 4:11pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ, MT, Yoga

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Unfortunately there are two problems.

    1 - There are poopheads who will not let you openly come to their schoole

    2- There are poo heads who believe all the same old BS. they come to this site, see the language and the images and immediately get turned off. You know the type: "I don't like hip-hop, I mean all the cussing and negativity". If you are old and know nothing about hip-hop that is how you view the whole genre. I can easily see someone coming to BS.net and getting the same response.

    Perhaps direct them to BS.com and BS.org. (Unless you already did that).

    I would just go watch a class at a school first. Then after you watch talk with them. That way you can post either way, but still give them the ability to discuss/defend/explain anything which they may perceive as insulting.
  5. Airman Kai is offline
    Airman Kai's Avatar

    AK: Giving new meaning to the word "Unfair."

    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Scott AFB, IL
    Posts
    1,536

    Posted On:
    11/15/2007 4:13pm


     Style: Out-Of-Shape MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    But I feel so cheated! Look at how I could have earned my black belt in multiple arts, and cicumvented actually learning stuff by just learning a made up martial arts style!

    With Uke Ki Shin Ryu’s revolutionary mixed martial arts system you will study:
    [Grappling – like that of MMA (Mixed Martial Arts)
    [Sparring & Striking – like that of Mutai kickboxing
    [Combat
    [Weapons
    [Traditional Martial Arts
    [Mental Strategy
    [Natural Health
    [XMA (Extreme Martial Arts) – martial arts with a gymnastics twist


    Why go anywhere else when Dragon Dojo Martial Arts gives you the best of all in one place and in one comprehensive, revolutionary martial arts system!

    ·Ninjutsu- The Art of Winning / The Art of Stealth
    ·Shaolin Kung Fu- (Shaolin) - Young Forest (Kung Fu) - Skill Learned Over Time
    ·Karate Do- The Way of the Open Hand
    ·Wado Ryu- The Way of Peace and Harmony
    ·Self-Defense and Full Contact to Light Contact Sparring
    ·Judo- The Way of Gentleness
    ·Tae Kwon Do- The Way of Hand and Foot
    ·Ki Ken Do - The Way of the Spirit Sword
    ·Chi Focus- The Healing Art
    ·Chi Combat- Striking with Internal Energy
    ·Iron Body- Training the Body to Receive and Deliver Extreme Blows
    ·Weapons Training

    Mini Dragons & Kids Karate: Classes are geared to young martial artists and their needs. These classes mainly cover the sports and traditional karate categories . We work on building self-confidence, manners, discipline, balance, flexibility and coordination. The kids receive personalized attention and learn a practical martial arts program. Classes are geared to young martial artists and their needs.

    Ukejutsu for Adults: Classes are geared to adult martial artists and their needs. Most of us in the United States would not be privy to this discipline of training. Much like the Shaolin warrior monk, the trainee apprentices as a martial artist rather then just taking a karate class. This program for teens and adults covers all categories and can serve to achieve many goals, such as training in self defense, building confidence, learning traditional martial arts, and even studying to one day have his/her own martial arts facility. The trainee will learn usable martial art skills and get in the best shape of his/her life while facilitating a harmony of mind, body, and spirit.
    Combat Tactics:

    Stealth
    Weapons
    Unarmed Combat
    Pressure Points
    Evasion Tactics
    Grappling:

    Ground Fighting
    Take Downs
    Throws
    Arm & Leg Locks
    Choke Outs
    Joint Manipulation

    Traditional martial arts:

    Kata (Forms)
    One Steps
    Blocks
    Kicks
    Strikes
    Self Defense
    Sport martial arts:

    Sparring: Full Contact to Light Contact
    Free Style Kata
    Musical Kata
    Weapons
    Tournaments

    Chi Gung:

    Relieve Stress



    Low Impact Exercise

    Stimulate Healing

    Relieve Joint Pain

    Meditations



    Normally just one of these categories would be considered a full system. Ukejutsu's revolutionary discipline combines all of these into one POWERFUL system.



    Earn multiple Black Belts in Uke Ki Shin Ryu.


    The Uke Ki Shin Ryu Warrior System is comprised of three major parts that can be studied separately but together form the full circle of the enlightened warrior.

    [Earn your Black Belt in Ukejutsu – Martial Arts Studies Program - Study the root base of all martial arts in this comprehensive martial art studies program.

    [Earn your Certificate in Waiest Mental Fitness Training’s Chi Focus – Discover new and ancient forms of meditation, philosophical, natural health, and fitness guidance.

    [Earn your Black Belt in Ki Ken Do – Five Elemental Strategy Study Program- The trainee will learn the quick draw techniques of the Samurai warrior and the stealth and cutting techniques of Ninjutsu. You will study the strategy base of the Samurai’s Bushido and Ninjutsu’s Ninpo traditions.


    We, at the Dragon Dojo, are motivated, dedicated, and on a quest to be the best!

    Last edited by Airman Kai; 11/15/2007 4:15pm at .



  6. Dsimon3387 is offline

    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    san francisco
    Posts
    3,079

    Posted On:
    11/15/2007 4:13pm

    Join us... or die
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by airman kai
    So, some of you may have seen another thread I started over at YMAS, a poll that asked which school in the Panama City, FL area I should go and do a Dojo Review on.

    http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=62055

    Dragon Dojo was, by leaps and bounds, the winner, so I began to open up lines of communication with it's owner and head instructor, Robert Wiest. I was unable to get in touch with him for about a week, but yesterday, I managed to get him on the phone.

    Summarized conversation is as follows:

    KAI: Hello, sir. I'd like to come to your school and do an objective review that will be published at a website forum that I frequent.
    ROB: Huh, a forum? That's where everybody can talk about things, right?
    KAI: Yah, yah it is.
    ROB: Ooooh, well, ya see, I've been to one of these online forums that you're talking about, and I can't say I liked it very much. It was very negative, and people were saying things that weren't very nice. I mean, being a martial artist requires a person to have good morals and judgement, as well, so all that negativity was really just identifying them as not being actual martial artists, just guys who fight.
    KAI: Right... well, I assure you, this forum has it's share of frivolous nonsense, but at it's core is a community of people that are passionate about martial arts. There are people of all martial backgrounds on this site. We've got Kung Fu, Karate, TKD, hell, we even have Ninjas. Most of the focus is on competitive use of these, though.
    ROB: Yah, I see what you're saying, but it just kind of puts me off, ya know? I mean, you ever watch that one show with the guys who fight in the UFC and they live in that house and drink beer and fight each other? If it's like that, I wouldn't want to be a part of that, ya know? I'd actually rather you not write anything about me at all just yet.
    KAI: So, at this point, you're not inclined to have me come to your school?
    ROB: No, not at this time. How about this: send me the link to the forum, and I'll think about it.
    KAI: I see. I'll send you that email immediatly.
    ROB: Thanks. Hey, look, if you wanna come and take a free class or two, that's fine.
    KAI: Really? That sounds great. Tomorrow, then?
    ROB: Sure, sounds good.
    KAI: I bet there are few people who would be interested to know that I'm indeed visiting your school. Mind if I post that info on the forum?
    ROB: I'd rather you not, I don't want my name out there in the open until I'm sure about this, ok?
    KAI: Wait... really? I'm just going to say that I'll be visiting your school. I won't post a review or anything if you don't want me to.
    ROB: Still, I'd prefer that you didn't.
    KAI: Uh... ok, then.
    ROB: Are we cool? I'm not trying to be a jerk, here, it's just that the internet is an angry place, ya know?
    KAI: Ya, yah, I get what you're saying.
    ROB: Ok, cool.
    KAI: So, see you tomorrow, then?
    ROB: Looking forward to it!
    KAI: Awesome, see you then. Bye.
    ROB: Bye.

    So, today, I was ready to drive 45 min to his school, when I got this email:



    To which I responded:


    So, while we could ENDLESSLY get into the Dragon Dojo, I have a different question...

    How am I supposed to expose BS when the BSers run scared? Is it to the point where I have to go stealth? I mean, seriously, is dishonesty the ony way to get into their school?

    You raise a very important issue. Make no mistake about it either, it will come to this issue time and time again if allowed to do so, under an assumption that somoene who desires to post information about a school, must be transparent about it.

    I can only tell you that as somoene whom has taught Ethics and otherwise has an interest in these types of questions..... I don't see any reason why you as a prospective student has to be transparent. Before I continue, it is worth mentioning that that this similar issue was broached on another thread involving a teacher making claims.

    1) What if this guy is a really good teacher? That is theoretically as much a possability as the other

    2) You are a consumer, you have a right to share information. People go to restaurants and post bad reviews on the web all the time, is this immoral? So I can complain about the service at Chevy's but I can't at the MA school next door?

    3) Your disclosure queers the deal!!! Its what you ran into in this situation. You are better served operating without giving your purpose away, thats what secret shoppers are for as well.

    4) Ethically you serve a higher purpose. It is not about you it is about consumers who might sign a contract, or get injured, or learn something which gives him/her a false sense of security. This gives you certain privaleges.

    5) as a form of media the internet is an open loop. Martial arts teachers can respond to critiscism rendered. They are just as strong a voice as anybody on a forum provided they provide information that supports a conclusion, and are not simply trying to find a way to peddle something that is not what it should be.


    What right is given to Fakirs and other pretenders? Harry Houdini was allowed to expose these types with any means necessary for Scientific America.... why do they deserve any more consideration than any other market for goods and services?

    Martial arts is one of those types of affairs where people are allowed to sneak under the radar and there is no ethical of logical reason for this allowance. You charge a price you deserve to be evaluated... period!! Otherwise don't teach commercially.
  7. Vorpal is offline
    Vorpal's Avatar

    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    A Hell of my own making
    Posts
    3,078

    Posted On:
    11/15/2007 4:14pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    AK, The website says they offer "Specialized Programs for Adult Cover: UKEJUTSU (THE ART OF RECEIVING) which includes aspects of: Ninjutsu, Shaolin Kung Fu, Karate, Judo, Tae Kwon Do, The Art Of The Samurai, Chi Focus, Iron Body, Weapons Training, and MORE! "
    Yet on the instructors page they have only photos and names. There is no listing of any training, certification, fight records, really no information at all. Obviously a more in depth investigation would be required to throw a "Bullshido" label on it but there are enough warning signs there to say why bother. I love the photos, they should be captioned:" Learn to stand outside, WITHOUT A COAT!" Anyway, thanks for serving in the AF my brother, I just retired in Jan after 21 years of Active and Air Nat'l Guard service (Security Forces).
    Last edited by Vorpal; 11/15/2007 4:18pm at .
  8. cyrijl is offline
    cyrijl's Avatar

    Light Heavyweight

    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Boston, MA
    Posts
    3,796

    Posted On:
    11/15/2007 4:17pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ, MT, Yoga

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    NEVERMIND>>>WTF IS THIS:
    Shihan Wiest holds black belts in:

    · Tae Kwon Do

    · Ninjutsu

    · Judo

    · Wado Ryu

    · Ukejutsu

    · Ki Ken Do

    · Sole heir of Uke Ki Shin Ryu Warrior System
    Shihan Wiest also has extensive training in:

    · Shaolin Temple Kung Fu

    · Studied With Tibetan Monks

    · Chi Gong

    ·
    DimMak/Chi Combat



    Shihan Wiest holds a certificate in:

    · Mikkyo Philosophy Studies.

    · Waiest Mental Fitness Training

    · Certified Natural Health Specialist



    Who needs benefit of the doubt at this point?
  9. Airman Kai is offline
    Airman Kai's Avatar

    AK: Giving new meaning to the word "Unfair."

    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Scott AFB, IL
    Posts
    1,536

    Posted On:
    11/15/2007 4:18pm


     Style: Out-Of-Shape MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Vorpal
    Anyway, thanks for serving in the AF my brother, I just retired in Jan after 21 years of Active and Air Nat'l Guard service (Security Forces).
    And to you as well, bro. SF can be rough stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by cyrijl
    Who needs benefit of the doubt at this point?
    Nobody, that's who.
    Last edited by Airman Kai; 11/15/2007 4:21pm at .



  10. Featherstone is offline

    Registered Member

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    Location
    Tarpon Springs, Fl
    Posts
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    Posted On:
    11/15/2007 4:20pm


     Style: wah lum kungfu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think what you have done suffices for proof of Bull.
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