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  1. PCH is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/10/2007 12:22am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: BJJ / JJJ / Boxing / RBSD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Rumi Maki Peruvian Martial Arts

    Does anyone know anything about this style...?


    I browsed through a new book on the art tonight at the book store.

    The art looked pretty decent, actually, but it all also seemed a little to "perfect" to me; an art made up from several different styles of Ancient South American Martial Arts only a few people know that looks a lot like other modern martial arts.

    Also, the entire book is on unarmed martial arts techniques. "Ancient" systems almost always have a very heavy weapon component. The empty hand stuff is usually pretty small in comparison.

    Just curious about it.

    Here's their site:

    www.rumimaki.com

    Thanks!

    Next thing you know they will probably be telling us they have found a jiujitsu style from Brazil!
    Last edited by PCH; 11/10/2007 12:28am at .
  2. wdhmt is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/10/2007 7:01am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Muay Thai

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I can't tell if you're serious (I doubt it), but I'll go ahead and answer anyway.

    1. Their site, now down, is hosted on Geocities.
    2. They do emphasize weapons, the 'spear thrower' and several other useless ones included.
    3. No noteworthy hits on the web as far as I could find. Even their Wikipedia article was taken down.
    4. Other than the book you mentioned, the only historical 'proof' offered is a newspaper clipping from the 70's.
    5. I'm not sure this is the art you're talking about, but I suspect it is. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stojyc8C-eo
    Please note the straight-armed, twisting torso, hook-esque punches that are thrown quite often.
    6. Ancient MA known to a select few + mysticism = utter bullshit.
  3. Teh El Macho is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/10/2007 8:30am

    supporting member
     Style: creonte on hiatus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    It is rubbish. I saw that book too, glossed over, and there is nothing in it that would elicit any serious response. Take the Quechua-sounding names for their techniques, replace the participants in the picture with blonde folks with mullets, and you have virtually the same type of books as Ashida Kim's.

    No, I'm serious.

    I hate to say it but Peru has been a haven of where hacks and snake oil sellers concote all kind of crap, banking (or actually whoring) on the mysticism of the Inca civilization. It is actually quite sad that they do such a thing from something so honorable, real and historic as the Inca legacy.

    They treat Inca legacy as something mistic, hidden and lost, waiting to be discovered. In reality, however, it is fucking well written and documented, almost every single thing they accomplished, down to the minutia that peppered a common's man daily life.

    So, short answer: Rumi Maki is bollocks. Bullshit. Plain and simple.

    There are real, little known martial arts autoctonous South America: Capoeira comes to mind. Garrote Larense (a stick fighting method in Venezuela), Wrestling in the Amazons. Argentina had a history of using boleadoras and knife fighting, but that's all lost and there are no live practitioner today who use them as weapons.

    And South America is a haven of modern martial arts. Just look at Brazil and their BJJ/Vale Tudo/Luta Livre. Boxing is big, Kyokushin to a lesser extend. And Judo rules. Peru has obscene numbers of Judoka (for example, the head coaches of the US Olympic Judo training center in South Florida are from Peru.) Wrestling is also big.

    South America has a rich tradition in martial arts. Rumi Maki is not part of it.
    Read this for flexibility and injury prevention, this, this and this for supplementation, this on grip conditioning, and this on staph. New: On strenght standards, relationships and structural balance. Shoulder problems? Read this.

    My crapuous vlog and my blog of training, stuff and crap. NEW: Me, Mrs. Macho and our newborn baby.

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    The street argument is retarded. BJJ is so much overkill for the street that its ridiculous. Unless you're the idiot that picks a fight with the high school wrestling team, barring knife or gun play, the opponent shouldn't make it past double leg + ground and pound - Osiris
  4. Dsimon3387 is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/10/2007 1:55pm

    Join us... or die
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh El Macho
    It is rubbish. I saw that book too, glossed over, and there is nothing in it that would elicit any serious response. Take the Quechua-sounding names for their techniques, replace the participants in the picture with blonde folks with mullets, and you have virtually the same type of books as Ashida Kim's.

    No, I'm serious.

    I hate to say it but Peru has been a haven of where hacks and snake oil sellers concote all kind of crap, banking (or actually whoring) on the mysticism of the Inca civilization. It is actually quite sad that they do such a thing from something so honorable, real and historic as the Inca legacy.

    They treat Inca legacy as something mistic, hidden and lost, waiting to be discovered. In reality, however, it is fucking well written and documented, almost every single thing they accomplished, down to the minutia that peppered a common's man daily life.

    So, short answer: Rumi Maki is bollocks. Bullshit. Plain and simple.

    There are real, little known martial arts autoctonous South America: Capoeira comes to mind. Garrote Larense (a stick fighting method in Venezuela), Wrestling in the Amazons. Argentina had a history of using boleadoras and knife fighting, but that's all lost and there are no live practitioner today who use them as weapons.

    And South America is a haven of modern martial arts. Just look at Brazil and their BJJ/Vale Tudo/Luta Livre. Boxing is big, Kyokushin to a lesser extend. And Judo rules. Peru has obscene numbers of Judoka (for example, the head coaches of the US Olympic Judo training center in South Florida are from Peru.) Wrestling is also big.

    South America has a rich tradition in martial arts. Rumi Maki is not part of it.

    Nice post. I don't know **** about the subject but I am swayed by your facts.

    1) True about the Incas and many (maybe all?) of the ancient American empires.... They were among other things, literate. Makes a big difference in that when we can decipher we can read and know what went on there. There are no mysteries. I actually have a rare book in my possession that describes Aztec combat against Spanairds and it is interesting to say the least... hardly mystical though.

    Thing is empires take soldgering and the warriors may be part of it, may not, but the Aztecs at least (different from the Incas i know not in this regard) had a higher regard for soldgering and bribery than one may imagine.

    There might be some guys who know something... I am not quite ready to say it is impossible, but it would be a hard act to pull off. A lot of generations and they would have to match the Japanese Ko Ryu for longevity..... the oldest one in existence at least. And nobody had the obsession of the Japanese which is why we have Tanachi Ryu and a few slelect other arts that people with a passion for history can study.
  5. Teh El Macho is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/10/2007 3:34pm

    supporting member
     Style: creonte on hiatus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    With the massive depopulation, forced relocation and mass migrations experienced by Amerindian nations during the conquest, and a complete loss of the upper classes (warriors and professional soldiers as well as the ruling and priestly classes who were record keepers), it is highly improbable that there is someone with undiscovered, and most importantly, authentic secrets or knowledge from the pre-columbian period.

    One good example is in my country, Nicaragua. With the exception of a few tribal nations in the Atlantic coast, every single Amerindian tribe in existance today were formed after the conquest. During the conquest, those who didn't die were relocated, intermingled with people from other ethnicities. Thus, the original national identity was lost (along with much, but not all, of their traditions.)

    New population nucleus were formed and new nation/tribal identities were formed. New native languages were adopted, or dropped completely in favor of Spanish (or English or Miskito in the Atlantic coast.)

    This process was repeated all over the Americas. Few population centers were able to retain their cohesiveness (either because of cheer numbers as in the Maya, Mapuche or Aymara) or because they lived in remote areas (as in the Amazon basin.)

    In Mexico, right after the conquest, Nahuatl (the language of the Aztecs which were pretty much decimated) was used as a lingua franca by the Spaniards. Other nations switched to it, and eventually most of them dropped it in favor of their own version of Spanish.

    In Brazil, it was the Tupi-Guarani who became the lingua franca (which made many other ethnic groups adopt it.) In Paraguay, Spaniards and mixed-blood people actually dropped Spanish and fully adopted Guarani as the language.

    In Peru, which is the focus of this thread, Quechua, the language of the Inca, was not widespread. After the conquest of the Inca, and after almost a century of fighting and eventual conquest of a remnant Neo-Inca state, the Spaniards adopted, once again, what they deemed a useful lingua franca. In this case, it was Quechua.

    It was during that first century after the conquest that people got shuffled and reshuffled, losing their elites, their national identities and part of the historical records (via oral tradition), adopting new tribal or mixed blood (mestizo) identities, and adopting one language, and then another.

    And all of these has been perfectly documented, by priests and scholars that came from Spain at that time, and by the few scribes and nobility that survived the conquest and who became literate in Spanish and Latin, writing as much as they could before passing away.

    So, in that background, is it possible that after 500+/- years of well-documented cultural reshuffling, all of the sudden we find a previously unknown martial arts tradition, that claims to trace itself back to the Inca (who were pretty much decimated or subject to the cultural reshufling)?

    In particular, can that possibly occur in a heavely populated, urbanized area? This claim is not occuring in some obscure village in the middle of the jungle. The Andean Plateau of Peru and Bolivia is choked-full of cities and towns with an indigenous population of millions.

    So, is it possible? Yep. However, it is sooooo improvable that one cannot but call bs on them. And what I saw in their book is really bs. It's a chimera, a poorly constructed one.
    Read this for flexibility and injury prevention, this, this and this for supplementation, this on grip conditioning, and this on staph. New: On strenght standards, relationships and structural balance. Shoulder problems? Read this.

    My crapuous vlog and my blog of training, stuff and crap. NEW: Me, Mrs. Macho and our newborn baby.

    New To Weight Training? Get the StrongLifts 5x5 program and Rippetoe's "Starting Strength, 2nd Ed". Wanna build muscle/gain weight? Check this article. My review on Tactical Nutrition here.

    t-nation - Dissecting the deadlift. Anatomy and Muscle Balancing Videos.

    The street argument is retarded. BJJ is so much overkill for the street that its ridiculous. Unless you're the idiot that picks a fight with the high school wrestling team, barring knife or gun play, the opponent shouldn't make it past double leg + ground and pound - Osiris
  6. Dsimon3387 is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/11/2007 9:37am

    Join us... or die
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh El Macho
    With the massive depopulation, forced relocation and mass migrations experienced by Amerindian nations during the conquest, and a complete loss of the upper classes (warriors and professional soldiers as well as the ruling and priestly classes who were record keepers), it is highly improbable that there is someone with undiscovered, and most importantly, authentic secrets or knowledge from the pre-columbian period.

    One good example is in my country, Nicaragua. With the exception of a few tribal nations in the Atlantic coast, every single Amerindian tribe in existance today were formed after the conquest. During the conquest, those who didn't die were relocated, intermingled with people from other ethnicities. Thus, the original national identity was lost (along with much, but not all, of their traditions.)

    New population nucleus were formed and new nation/tribal identities were formed. New native languages were adopted, or dropped completely in favor of Spanish (or English or Miskito in the Atlantic coast.)

    This process was repeated all over the Americas. Few population centers were able to retain their cohesiveness (either because of cheer numbers as in the Maya, Mapuche or Aymara) or because they lived in remote areas (as in the Amazon basin.)

    In Mexico, right after the conquest, Nahuatl (the language of the Aztecs which were pretty much decimated) was used as a lingua franca by the Spaniards. Other nations switched to it, and eventually most of them dropped it in favor of their own version of Spanish.

    In Brazil, it was the Tupi-Guarani who became the lingua franca (which made many other ethnic groups adopt it.) In Paraguay, Spaniards and mixed-blood people actually dropped Spanish and fully adopted Guarani as the language.

    In Peru, which is the focus of this thread, Quechua, the language of the Inca, was not widespread. After the conquest of the Inca, and after almost a century of fighting and eventual conquest of a remnant Neo-Inca state, the Spaniards adopted, once again, what they deemed a useful lingua franca. In this case, it was Quechua.

    It was during that first century after the conquest that people got shuffled and reshuffled, losing their elites, their national identities and part of the historical records (via oral tradition), adopting new tribal or mixed blood (mestizo) identities, and adopting one language, and then another.

    And all of these has been perfectly documented, by priests and scholars that came from Spain at that time, and by the few scribes and nobility that survived the conquest and who became literate in Spanish and Latin, writing as much as they could before passing away.

    So, in that background, is it possible that after 500+/- years of well-documented cultural reshuffling, all of the sudden we find a previously unknown martial arts tradition, that claims to trace itself back to the Inca (who were pretty much decimated or subject to the cultural reshufling)?

    In particular, can that possibly occur in a heavely populated, urbanized area? This claim is not occuring in some obscure village in the middle of the jungle. The Andean Plateau of Peru and Bolivia is choked-full of cities and towns with an indigenous population of millions.

    So, is it possible? Yep. However, it is sooooo improvable that one cannot but call bs on them. And what I saw in their book is really bs. It's a chimera, a poorly constructed one.

    I bought the book because I like to look into these things myself. It was 10 bucks haha. Just a hobby. Part of the library dedicated to reconstructions of various sorts, downright frauds and so on. Your info makes a lot of sense. I hope people realize as much. And yes the sad reality on most of these things is that they are improbable.

    Teach your sons and daughters keep your line going.... Teach your sons and daughters! haha.
  7. Toby Christensen is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/11/2007 9:44am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Using bag as aggro outlet

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    http://ulfhednir.dk/uk/index.html

    I would say that THIS is closer to proper historical reconstruction. Not 100%, but close (because after all we can't just ASK people who have been dead for the better part of 1000 years minimum)

    Interestingly "Ulfhednir" is a Danish verb meaning "decapitate".
    What am I?:

    I am ignorant, thieving, lying, hypocrital, violent and thoroughly self obssessed. I steal from others to make myself look better, only to make the item or information worse.

    I go on and on and ON about how brave and strong and brilliant and wealthy I am, but in the end I'm all mouth and no trousers.

    That's right children, I'm your average AMERICUNT! and I exemplify AMERICA!:911flag:

    :occasion1

    JohnnyCache's "retort" proving how much he knows about medicine and geography and First World countries:
    http://www.bullshido.net/forums/show...=78188&page=22

    Yes, through persistent lack of work and the cultivation of ignorance, he is a true American.
  8. Don Gwinn is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/11/2007 9:50am

    supporting member
     Style: Guns

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Interesting. I saw the book at Barnes and Noble a few weeks ago and browsed through it, but I figured it was probably only new to me.
    *********************************************
  9. marcell is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/13/2007 7:55am


     Style: JKD and BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by wdhmt
    I can't tell if you're serious (I doubt it), but I'll go ahead and answer anyway.

    1. Their site, now down, is hosted on Geocities.
    2. They do emphasize weapons, the 'spear thrower' and several other useless ones included.
    3. No noteworthy hits on the web as far as I could find. Even their Wikipedia article was taken down.
    4. Other than the book you mentioned, the only historical 'proof' offered is a newspaper clipping from the 70's.
    5. I'm not sure this is the art you're talking about, but I suspect it is. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stojyc8C-eo
    Please note the straight-armed, twisting torso, hook-esque punches that are thrown quite often.
    6. Ancient MA known to a select few + mysticism = utter bullshit.
    WTF was those sounds in the background? It reminds me of that episode of South Park with all the turkies that go crazy and attack the townfolk, same sound.
  10. tamunangero is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/07/2007 8:58am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: garrote larense

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    rumi maki

    Hello all
    it my first post. just got a phd in anthropology doing fieldwork in Venezuela studying garrote de lara I am interested in the many different martial art traditions in Latin America . I just received and read the book on rumi maki and i would like to make a few respectfull comments about it.

    Teh Gran Macho makes some very relevant and historically accurate remarks. However, as my research in Venezuela shows that while the conquest and miscenegation of indigenous groups with other groups as well as European and African popualtions has gone on until today, making the idea of a 'pure tribe ' or nation unlikely, I would argue that in many parts of Latin America much of the population can still be considered hispanicized and proletarianized indians. That is while they may dress , look and work like poor farmers or laborers, there still is a great deal of indigenous blood and life ways in them. This is what I have found in parts of Venezuela, Brazil and Peru.

    In the case of Venezuela it seems likely that the indigenous popualtions that were forced to work on the plantations, ranches and urban centers learned, stole, copied, added on to their own existence of combative systems, other comabtive systems or weapons brought by immigrants from Africa, Europe, and the Carribean. These systems would then be used in a very voliatile environment where competition for land ,political power and a highly sensitive notion of honor would mean that these systems would be utilized and refined throughout the centuries to meet real threats. In the case of Venezuela,many of the garroteros would talk to me about the time of the 'guapos'. These were just bad ass fighters who went around looking for fights on saturday night or sunday afternoon at a time when most all rural men had to carry a walking sized stick with them. These types of men died out slowly in the 1950's when carrying sticks in public was finally banned and the ban was able to be enforced. With this move, juvenile delinquents and criminals became more commonly assocaited with the use of weapons in the public eye.

    It is this type of atmosphere in Venezuela that makes me believe that arts such as Rumi Maki could survive. As far as it is from the time of the Inca, that is only about 400 years ago. So to cast doubt on rumi maki would mean casting doubt on the roots of capoeira and many kung fu styles (a valuable endeavour in itself). And it may just be an 'invented tradition' of men trying to find pride and honor in a long past age. Looking over the techniques shown and the film clips, I would support the idea that it is a true combative tradition from the andean highlands, (see scholarly works on Tinku in Bolivia). Looking at the men fight, they got heart and are willing to mix it up and and trade hard blows. That is an aspect that is key to any combative art. As the garroteros used to tell me that the attitude of "palo por palo' was quite valued among men, the ability to stand there and trade blow for blow.

    I for one am looking forward to meet this man or his students, I think he has a lot to offer
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