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  1. Shug is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/10/2007 12:57pm


     Style: TKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    you guys know ther is a pretty thorough thread that was previously posted a couple years ago on this subject. I posted the links it gives on the HW forum a month or two ago.

    actually, figured I'd post the link:

    http://www.bullshido.net/forums/show...iscovers+roots
    Last edited by Shug; 11/10/2007 1:00pm at .
  2. odojang is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/10/2007 4:11pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Taekwon-Do

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Blues-man
    Sorry... but from where is this information coming?
    There are breaking, tul and sparring competitions in the World Championships.
    The headgear has been always optional, but in the rules there's nothing about the body padding. The hand techniques are perfectly legal... At least in ITF-V, I don't know about the other two.
    I know it is not universal yet ; but here in Quebec, there is a strong tendency towards this trend since 1990 and the numerous ITFs are more or less battling over the issue of keeping the original format or adapting it to present olympic standard.

    The ITF led by Chang Ung may be the less inclined toward this new trend; but in a meeting with Canadian federation president master Phap Lu last year, he clearly stated to me that their two main goals were to merge with WTF and gain access to the Olympics.

    In this regard, it is the only common point to all the ITFs is that they focus less and less on education and martial art proper and more on sport. In my opinion, something will be lost in the process... if it has not already.

    But that is just my opinion.I'm an old timer and still long for the good ol' days when Taekwon-Do was just ''the art of Self-Defence'' and strived for ''moral culture''.
  3. CanucKyokushin is offline

    He'll flip ya!

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    Posted On:
    11/10/2007 4:29pm

    supporting member
     Style: Not.....working

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    This is the first I have ever heard of any attempt by anyone to unify TKD with Kyokushin karate.I hope you can link me to a website or find me an article that explains this more thoroughly please.

    I'll take a look at that old BS thread to see if it's there. If anyone would care to save me the trouble and tell me on what page I would appreciate it.
  4. Blues-man is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/10/2007 5:00pm


     Style: TKD ITF, Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by CanucKyokushin
    This is the first I have ever heard of any attempt by anyone to unify TKD with Kyokushin karate.I hope you can link me to a website or find me an article that explains this more thoroughly please.

    I'll take a look at that old BS thread to see if it's there. If anyone would care to save me the trouble and tell me on what page I would appreciate it.
    Here's some pictures of Oyama and Choi.

    http://www.lacancha.com/oyama.html
    http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/6273/21fb1.jpg
    http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/806...choi355hk6.jpg
    http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/622...choi407fz0.jpg
    http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/8363/16ce2.jpg
    http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/7...hoi4981ij2.jpg

    Sorry, but I don't have more info.
  5. DerAuslander is offline
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    Valiant Monk of Booze & War

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    Posted On:
    11/11/2007 10:59am

    supporting memberstaff
     Style: BJJ/C-JKD/KAAALIII!!!!!!!

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by odojang
    - The merging of the other kwans was probably more bureaucratic and political than technically factual; but the heavy input of Nam Tae Hi' Chung Do Kwan was definitely acknowledged by Gen Choi and master Nam both. There is no doubt that Choi's main input had been political; but having seen him in advanced age with stomach cancer perform Taekwon-Do techniques flawlessly, explain even in a foreign langage (English) his technical principles clearly and methodically, and transmit his knowledge with sound teaching skills, it is hard to believe that his contribution was limited to that. But I admit this is a subjective argument. still...
    The other gwan never merged with the ITF. Period.
  6. kolsyrade is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/11/2007 11:18am


     Style: kyokushin

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by CanucKyokushin
    This is the first I have ever heard of any attempt by anyone to unify TKD with Kyokushin karate.I hope you can link me to a website or find me an article that explains this more thoroughly please.
    At a visit to korea to meet relatives, Oyama also met up with General Cho. At that meeting Choi asked Oyama to merge kyokushin into TKD.
    Oyama politely but firmly said no.

    That was as far as the "attempt" ever got.
  7. odojang is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/11/2007 9:06pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Taekwon-Do

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Thanks for those Blues-man. I only knew of the 5th one. The 6th one doesn't look like General Choi tho, (his son, master Choi Jhun Hwa maybe? looks like him...)

    Indeed, as I was told, it never got beyond a polite invitation and an as much polite refusal.

    Errant 108, please state your references. I'd like to learn more than just opinions about this. Thanks in advance.
  8. DerAuslander is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/12/2007 5:53pm

    supporting memberstaff
     Style: BJJ/C-JKD/KAAALIII!!!!!!!

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by odojang
    Errant 108, please state your references. I'd like to learn more than just opinions about this. Thanks in advance.
    References: Hwang Kee's Subakdo Daegam, John Hancock, Dan Segarra, Lee Kyongmyong's "History of Taekwondo"...

    Take your pick from any of the Gwan that didn't join the ITF. The ITF was/is Odogwan. That's it. I have little patience with Choi nutriders, possibly less than WTF nutriders.
  9. odojang is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/12/2007 6:29pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Taekwon-Do

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Thanks, I'll try to find those and have a look see,

    Essentially you are correct about Oh Do Kwan being the essential basis of what became ITF. However, At the time, Master Nam Tae Hi of Chung Do Kwan was his right hand man and significantly contributed technically to this unification/ recognition process of Korean martial arts under the Taekwon-Do banner.

    I was made to believe that there was a joining of the main other schools. If that was not the case, then some conclusions spring up:

    Since the word Taekwon-Do was christened by General Choi to name his own martial art movement:

    1- All the other Korean styles that never joined the movement and were using the name were usurping it? Because it was officially recognized by the government thus more profitable socially, politically and financially to use the name while still doing their own stuff? Were they forced to do so? Or where did they go? I never saw a Kong Soo or a Kwon Bop school... or a Ji Do Kwan school without Taekwon-Do attached to it...

    2- Only the Oh Do Kwan and arguably Chung Do Kwan schools and direct offshoots like ITF would be Taekwon-Do? Were would WTF stand between those and the ''dissident'' schools?

    3- Is it that what many people call Taekwon-Do would be anything else (Korean Karate, Korean Kung Fu etc) but Taekwon-Do?

    I have some info and inside knowledge on this... but I want to get some input from others and see where this will go. There is always more to learn and understand.

    To tell the truth, it would explain some of the discrepancy I find between what I have learned and experienced and what I hear about...
  10. DerAuslander is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/12/2007 7:09pm

    supporting memberstaff
     Style: BJJ/C-JKD/KAAALIII!!!!!!!

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by odojang
    Essentially you are correct about Oh Do Kwan being the essential basis of what became ITF. However, At the time, Master Nam Tae Hi of Chung Do Kwan was his right hand man and significantly contributed technically to this unification/ recognition process of Korean martial arts under the Taekwon-Do banner.
    This does not mean the Cheongdogwan joined the ITF.

    Quote Originally Posted by odojang
    I was made to believe that there was a joining of the main other schools.
    Go read "History of Taegwondo" by Lee Kyongmyong. There was no join up. The ITF was formed after Choi left the KTA.

    Quote Originally Posted by odojang
    Since the word Taekwon-Do was christened by General Choi to name his own martial art movement:
    Completely historically incorrect.

    Taegwondo was suggested by Choi not to name his art, but to name the collective Karate influenced arts that were coming together during this period. It was not just HIS art.

    Quote Originally Posted by odojang
    1- All the other Korean styles that never joined the movement and were using the name were usurping it?
    Again, wrong. Choi suggested this name for EVERYONE'S Korean Karate art. Not just Odogwan's.

    Quote Originally Posted by odojang
    Because it was officially recognized by the government thus more profitable socially, politically and financially to use the name while still doing their own stuff?
    Their own stuff?

    Just a question. Do you speak Korean or read Hanja?

    Quote Originally Posted by odojang
    I never saw a Kong Soo or a Kwon Bop school... or a Ji Do Kwan school without Taekwon-Do attached to it...
    You've actually seen a Gwonbeop school?

    Quote Originally Posted by odojang
    2- Only the Oh Do Kwan and arguably Chung Do Kwan schools and direct offshoots like ITF would be Taekwon-Do? Were would WTF stand between those and the ''dissident'' schools?
    Seriously, get some resources on the history of Taegwondo that aren't ITF in origin. Your historical knowledge is so slanted that I don't know where to begin with you.

    Quote Originally Posted by odojang
    3- Is it that what many people call Taekwon-Do would be anything else (Korean Karate, Korean Kung Fu etc) but Taekwon-Do?
    Korean Kung Fu is NOT Taegwondo.

    Quote Originally Posted by odojang
    I have some info and inside knowledge on this... but I want to get some input from others and see where this will go. There is always more to learn and understand.
    Lovely. Can't wait to read it.
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