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  1. Teh El Macho is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/08/2007 5:18pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by switchblade
    Are throws done on your training partner different than throws you would do on an attacker? I can see why you would not try to throw your partner on his head, so would you adjust somehow, or throw harder, on an attacker? (anyone?)
    You would not want to throw your attacker on his head in a real S/D situation (for humane and legal reasons.) Even though those throws are performed on a mat, they hurt, they are done with force during practice, and they do carry a real risk of injury.

    Now, imagine the same throws on a hard surface. Then imagine your typical attacker who has never been thrown like that and who has never been trained to break falls. Automatically, that person is going to arch his back and stretch out his neck, rather than tucking your chin in. The probability of hitting the back of his head on a hard surface increases without you, the thrower, having to do any modification to the throws at all.

    Even if you don't hit your head on the floor, unless you know how to fall, you'll either stick your hand out, or fall on your elbow or knee. Even if you fall flat on your side, it will shock you and it will hurt you and it will exhaust you. It takes a lot of a man to shrug it off, specially if you are not accostumed to it. No need to modify the throws (but you could if you master them.)

    Also, no need to throw harder. You throw hard during training. Certainly during competitions. In a S/D situation, choosing to do so is debatable, and it doesn't take a lot of force to throw somebody with a poor base.

    Quote Originally Posted by KempoFist
    In what way was that NOT unnecessarily formal? The very reason I say they are "formal" is because they are performed in such a way here for presentations sake. They could very well just stroll out there, slap hands and show some throws, but rather they walk out, stepping in unison, bow, and grip stepping together with the intention of executing a successful throw and break fall. But the techniques work under resistance as well as in that demonstration. And the manner they demonstrate is a good example of isolation drilling to attain proper form, structure and overall technique.

    Most Judo guys I train with see this demonstration as more of a performance than anything else, but a necessary tool used to ensure that students ranked by the Kodokan are knowledgeable of the text-book techniques required for rank in Judo.
    I know, and I agree with you. The reason I say they are "not" unnecesarily formal is because the original intention of the katas were not just as training/demo/grading tools, but also for historical and cultural preservation purposes.

    For a strictly training point of view, then yes, all that formality is not needed. Aside from giving an opportunity to train ambidexterity (which would be harder with randori), Judo katas were never meant to be for training - you train with randori and ukichomi. Their intended purposes were broader - cultural and historical preservation and a whole bunch of esotheric reasons that drive these formalities, formalities that do not affect the execution of the throws.

    Remember that Judo was not intended to be a system to teach to kick ass. It was to be a physical education program where you develop character by learning to kick ass ;)

    Your Judo partners are right. Those katas are demos. They just happen to be far more realistic and practical than a lot of the crap being passed as training.

    I've seen another Judo kata (modern, non-cannon) that looks like a flow drill. Pretty fucking cool. Let me see if I have it in one my spared hard drives.
    Read this for flexibility and injury prevention, this, this and this for supplementation, this on grip conditioning, and this on staph. New: On strenght standards, relationships and structural balance. Shoulder problems? Read this.

    My crapuous vlog and my blog of training, stuff and crap. NEW: Me, Mrs. Macho and our newborn baby.

    New To Weight Training? Get the StrongLifts 5x5 program and Rippetoe's "Starting Strength, 2nd Ed". Wanna build muscle/gain weight? Check this article. My review on Tactical Nutrition here.

    t-nation - Dissecting the deadlift. Anatomy and Muscle Balancing Videos.

    The street argument is retarded. BJJ is so much overkill for the street that its ridiculous. Unless you're the idiot that picks a fight with the high school wrestling team, barring knife or gun play, the opponent shouldn't make it past double leg + ground and pound - Osiris
  2. Ke?poFist is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/08/2007 6:18pm

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     Style: Kaju, BJJ, Judo, Kempo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    So we got Judo kata and an Enshin kata that look pretty good. So can we now say that 99.9% of kata sucks?
    Knowing is not enough, you must apply...
    ...Willing is not enough you must do
    ~Bruce Lee

  3. Virus is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/08/2007 6:30pm

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     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by KempoFist
    So we got Judo kata and an Enshin kata that look pretty good. So can we now say that 99.9% of kata sucks?
    I agree but for simplicities sake let's just reduce it to "kata sucks".
  4. Teh El Macho is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/08/2007 6:49pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by KempoFist
    So we got Judo kata and an Enshin kata that look pretty good. So can we now say that 99.9% of kata sucks?
    Duh, of course!!!

    :icon_scra

    Waitta minute!! Were you trying to collect sample data to backup that statement? Did you just made us unwilling lab rats for an experiment in statistics?
    Read this for flexibility and injury prevention, this, this and this for supplementation, this on grip conditioning, and this on staph. New: On strenght standards, relationships and structural balance. Shoulder problems? Read this.

    My crapuous vlog and my blog of training, stuff and crap. NEW: Me, Mrs. Macho and our newborn baby.

    New To Weight Training? Get the StrongLifts 5x5 program and Rippetoe's "Starting Strength, 2nd Ed". Wanna build muscle/gain weight? Check this article. My review on Tactical Nutrition here.

    t-nation - Dissecting the deadlift. Anatomy and Muscle Balancing Videos.

    The street argument is retarded. BJJ is so much overkill for the street that its ridiculous. Unless you're the idiot that picks a fight with the high school wrestling team, barring knife or gun play, the opponent shouldn't make it past double leg + ground and pound - Osiris
  5. Ke?poFist is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/08/2007 7:06pm

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     Style: Kaju, BJJ, Judo, Kempo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh El Macho
    Duh, of course!!!

    :icon_scra

    Waitta minute!! Were you trying to collect sample data to backup that statement? Did you just made us unwilling lab rats for an experiment in statistics?
    ......yes...
    Knowing is not enough, you must apply...
    ...Willing is not enough you must do
    ~Bruce Lee

  6. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/08/2007 7:09pm

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     Style: Bartitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh El Macho

    I know, and I agree with you. The reason I say they are "not" unnecesarily formal is because the original intention of the katas were not just as training/demo/grading tools, but also for historical and cultural preservation purposes.

    For a strictly training point of view, then yes, all that formality is not needed. Aside from giving an opportunity to train ambidexterity (which would be harder with randori), Judo katas were never meant to be for training - you train with randori and ukichomi. Their intended purposes were broader - cultural and historical preservation and a whole bunch of esotheric reasons that drive these formalities, formalities that do not affect the execution of the throws.

    Remember that Judo was not intended to be a system to teach to kick ass. It was to be a physical education program where you develop character by learning to kick ass ;)
    Exactly, and these are points that often gets lost in this sort of discussion. The whole concept of kata derives from a time and place when/where literacy and publishing were uncommon (you couldn't just record the techniques in a book), and obviously photography and videography were far in the future. The kata were a formal, practical way of perpetuating the art for coming generations, which made perfect sense in the highly formalized culture of feudal Japan.

    By the time Kano was revolutionizing classical jujitsu (late 1800s), kata were accepted parts of the traditional pedagogy. He was at least as interested in preserving these traditions as he was in modernizing them to fit the Western physical education model, so the kata that ended up as parts of the Kodokan canon were compromises between the old school and the new school.

    So; yes, from the purely practical POV, the formalities attached to classical kata are "unnecessary", but it's worth bearing in mind that they have other values which have nothing to do with combat effectiveness.
  7. Ke?poFist is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/08/2007 7:16pm

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     Style: Kaju, BJJ, Judo, Kempo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    So does this make it not 2 but 1.5 good katas in existence? Not bad!
    Knowing is not enough, you must apply...
    ...Willing is not enough you must do
    ~Bruce Lee

  8. Teh El Macho is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/08/2007 7:28pm

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     Style: creonte on hiatus

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by KempoFist
    ......yes...
    Are you Republican???? :icon_conf
    Read this for flexibility and injury prevention, this, this and this for supplementation, this on grip conditioning, and this on staph. New: On strenght standards, relationships and structural balance. Shoulder problems? Read this.

    My crapuous vlog and my blog of training, stuff and crap. NEW: Me, Mrs. Macho and our newborn baby.

    New To Weight Training? Get the StrongLifts 5x5 program and Rippetoe's "Starting Strength, 2nd Ed". Wanna build muscle/gain weight? Check this article. My review on Tactical Nutrition here.

    t-nation - Dissecting the deadlift. Anatomy and Muscle Balancing Videos.

    The street argument is retarded. BJJ is so much overkill for the street that its ridiculous. Unless you're the idiot that picks a fight with the high school wrestling team, barring knife or gun play, the opponent shouldn't make it past double leg + ground and pound - Osiris
  9. Virus is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/08/2007 7:29pm

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     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You guys are starting to discuss things. Videos of good kata pls.
  10. Goju - Joe is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/08/2007 7:35pm

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     Style: Improv comedy

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