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  1. gjf is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/08/2007 11:56am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Bujinkan question

    I know theres a lot of controversy and debate going on about the Bujinkan and in particular Togakure Ryu but are the other schools taught in the Bujinkan in question as well, such as Kukishin Ryu, Shinden Fudo Ryu, Takagi Yoshin Ryu, Koto Ryu and Gyokko Ryu? Are any of these known to be authentic?
  2. Hanniballistic is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/08/2007 12:07pm


     Style: JKD & Mok'bara

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by gjf
    I know theres a lot of controversy and debate going on about the Bujinkan and in particular Togakure Ryu but are the other schools taught in the Bujinkan in question as well, such as Kukishin Ryu, Shinden Fudo Ryu, Takagi Yoshin Ryu, Koto Ryu and Gyokko Ryu? Are any of these known to be authentic?
    No :bully:
  3. Fitz is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/08/2007 2:30pm


     Style: Judo, Tomiki Aikido, ??

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Kukishinden Ryu Happo Bikenjutsu and Takagi Yoshin Ryu are both reasonably authenticated with Hatsumi's lineage from Takamatsu being undispluted. Takamatsu's lineage came from Ishitani Matsutaro Takekage and it if via that lineage that he passed Kukishinden ryu and Takagi Yoshin ryu to Hatsumi

    You can find out more about the Kukishin family of arts at

    http://www.shinjin.co.jp/kuki/hyoho/index_e.html

    while info on Takagi Yoshin Ryu can be found at

    http://www.koryu.com/guide/hontai.html

    Relatedly there is no dispute that the various schools were given by Takamatsu to Hatsumi. Takamatsu did in fact pass what he claimed to be nine seperate schools to Hatsumi. Additionaly the schools he passed to Hatsumi were not exclusive as other students of Takamatsu were trained in these same schools and other lineages of these arts, such as Gyokko ryu and Koto ryu, exist that are unrelated to Hatsumi.

    What is uncertain is whether these schools were the product of Takamatsu, by systematizing previous material or through his own creation, or if they pre-dated Takamatsu in some manner that could be traced historically. Thusfar no serious attempt to authenticate Takamatsu's biographical claims has been conducted by anyone qualified to do so, thus leaving a huge area of doubt and uncertainty regarding his claims.
    Last edited by Fitz; 11/08/2007 2:45pm at .
  4. dothackRAVE is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/08/2007 2:30pm

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     Style: Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by gjf
    I know theres a lot of controversy and debate going on about the Bujinkan and in particular Togakure Ryu but are the other schools taught in the Bujinkan in question as well, such as Kukishin Ryu, Shinden Fudo Ryu, Takagi Yoshin Ryu, Koto Ryu and Gyokko Ryu? Are any of these known to be authentic?
    No.

    I am a practitioner of Bujinkan, but I will not lie and tell you its all proven authentic. There are two possible explanations: 1) It's all bullshit invented by Soke Takamatsu (I doubt this, given the many challenges and victories that Takamatsu achieved) 2) Given the secrecy that the Shinobi carried, it would not be surprising if a lot of information is kept secret by the Soke Hatsumi.

    Oh, for the record: Bujinkan is does not pride itself in being an ancient art. It prides itself in evolving for the modern times. It is why Bujinkan does not teach students how to make smoke bombs when modern alternatives such as the flashbang does it so much more effectively. It is why Bujinkan places little focus in free running (running up walls, spider drops, hiding, etc.), because many practitioners simple don't need that kind of skill anymore. In a way, it is the Japanese version of MMA, minus the rules and the ring. In my training, I have encountered moves coming from Judo, Aikido, Chinese martial arts, etc. etc..

    Note, however, that the art of Bujinkan is as valid as any other, authentic or not. Who cares if the Samurai fought like Bujinkan claimed? Who cares if Shinobi did the techniques? If it you moved and it saved your life, it's good taijutsu.
  5. Hanniballistic is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/08/2007 3:13pm


     Style: JKD & Mok'bara

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by dothackRAVE
    No.
    Correct

    Quote Originally Posted by dothackRAVE
    I am a practitioner of Bujinkan, but I will not lie and tell you its all proven authentic. There are two possible explanations: 1) It's all bullshit invented by Soke Takamatsu (I doubt this, given the many challenges and victories that Takamatsu achieved) 2) Given the secrecy that the Shinobi carried, it would not be surprising if a lot of information is kept secret by the Soke Hatsumi.

    1) Occams razor seems to agree here....

    2) Super-duper ninja secrets do not cut it. Why? What the hell would he gain by doing this in contemporary society? Hatsumi is questioned as being bogus all the time and if he had the ways and means to prove his detractors wrong then he would have done so.

    If he cannot or will not not one member of the booj can complain when people say they are full of ****. In this respect he is not that different than Ashida Kim

    Ninja are gone - there is nothing to be gained by clinging to a memory just for the sake of appearing mysterious (other than fleecing money from easily influenced)

    Quote Originally Posted by dothackRAVE
    Oh, for the record: Bujinkan is does not pride itself in being an ancient art. It prides itself in evolving for the modern times. It is why Bujinkan does not teach students how to make smoke bombs when modern alternatives such as the flashbang does it so much more effectively. It is why Bujinkan places little focus in free running (running up walls, spider drops, hiding, etc.), because many practitioners simple don't need that kind of skill anymore.
    This is at odds with the continued practice of using swords, bo and all the other esoteric weaponry. The main reason these are taught is probably because no-one can actually do them anymore

    I have seen the Hatsumi videos with the blinding powder in - if that is not outdated horseshit with no relevance I do not know what is

    Quote Originally Posted by dothackRAVE
    In a way, it is the Japanese version of MMA, minus the rules and the ring. In my training, I have encountered moves coming from Judo, Aikido, Chinese martial arts, etc. etc..
    You cannot be fucking serious!!! Similarities will exist because we have two arms and two legs...What pressure testing does the booj ever do? More to the point, why is it that whenever we see booj - and indeed many other TMA;s - in application in never looks anything like the original art?

    Quote Originally Posted by dothackRAVE
    Note, however, that the art of Bujinkan is as valid as any other, authentic or not. Who cares if the Samurai fought like Bujinkan claimed? Who cares if Shinobi did the techniques? If it you moved and it saved your life, it's good taijutsu.
    No it is not. It is arguments like this that piss off the vast majority of practitioners of combat .

    Booj is at best unproven. At worst it is LARPing
  6. gjf is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/08/2007 3:30pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Fitz
    Kukishinden Ryu Happo Bikenjutsu and Takagi Yoshin Ryu are both reasonably authenticated with Hatsumi's lineage from Takamatsu being undispluted. Takamatsu's lineage came from Ishitani Matsutaro Takekage and it if via that lineage that he passed Kukishinden ryu and Takagi Yoshin ryu to Hatsumi

    You can find out more about the Kukishin family of arts at

    http://www.shinjin.co.jp/kuki/hyoho/index_e.html

    while info on Takagi Yoshin Ryu can be found at

    http://www.koryu.com/guide/hontai.html

    Relatedly there is no dispute that the various schools were given by Takamatsu to Hatsumi. Takamatsu did in fact pass what he claimed to be nine seperate schools to Hatsumi. Additionaly the schools he passed to Hatsumi were not exclusive as other students of Takamatsu were trained in these same schools and other lineages of these arts, such as Gyokko ryu and Koto ryu, exist that are unrelated to Hatsumi.

    What is uncertain is whether these schools were the product of Takamatsu, by systematizing previous material or through his own creation, or if they pre-dated Takamatsu in some manner that could be traced historically. Thusfar no serious attempt to authenticate Takamatsu's biographical claims has been conducted by anyone qualified to do so, thus leaving a huge area of doubt and uncertainty regarding his claims.



    I have read somewhere that Takamatsu was an instructor for the Kuki family so he does at the least have some lineage to an authentic art if this is true correct? The Kuki Familys style is koryu right?
  7. Plasma is online now
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    Posted On:
    11/08/2007 3:35pm

    supporting memberforum leaderstaff
     Style: 柔術

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Takamatsu was a Kukishin-ryu Shihan which is where alot of his martial "creds" comes from.
  8. Fitz is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/08/2007 3:40pm


     Style: Judo, Tomiki Aikido, ??

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by gjf
    I have read somewhere that Takamatsu was an instructor for the Kuki family so he does at the least have some lineage to an authentic art if this is true correct? The Kuki Familys style is koryu right?
    While to the best of my knowledge the Kuki family is not a member of Nihon Kobudo Shinkokai or similar organizations their arts is generally considered to be Koryu.
  9. dothackRAVE is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/08/2007 3:46pm

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     Style: Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hanniballistic
    1) Occams razor seems to agree here....

    2) Super-duper ninja secrets do not cut it. Why? What the hell would he gain by doing this in contemporary society? Hatsumi is questioned as being bogus all the time and if he had the ways and means to prove his detractors wrong then he would have done so.

    If he cannot or will not not one member of the booj can complain when people say they are full of ****. In this respect he is not that different than Ashida Kim

    Ninja are gone - there is nothing to be gained by clinging to a memory just for the sake of appearing mysterious (other than fleecing money from easily influenced)
    I COMPLETELY agree that Ninjas are a thing of the past. No one in my dojo calls themselves "ninja". We do joke about with that word, and we do acknowledge our roots. That's about it. It's not Bujinkan Ninjutsu. It's Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu. Bujinkan translates to "divine warrior training hall". Budo means "way of war". Taijutsu means "body art".

    There's no mention of Ninjas in the name of our art. However, we do have a sub-school with the name "Ninjutsu" in it: Togakure ryu Ninjutsu Hidensho. To assume that the entire Bujinkan school is nonsense just because 1/9 of the skills presented has dubious historical authority is to miss out on everything else though.

    While the authenticity of this one school has not been verified, it should be noted that most of the schools, if not all, have very similar moves. For example, Shizen no Kamae in Kukishinden Ryu is simple a variation of Shizen no Kamae in another school. The variations are there for differences in application. Kukishinden Ryu, which is the school that I am currently focusing most of my learning on, was designed for use with armor or other heavy weights (like, a heavy bag with three calculus textbooks...). It is up to the practitioner to learn and use these variations in contribution to his survival.

    As for Hatsumi NOT going around to disprove everyone, there's something called..., "humility", and "indifference" here. You could say he is not disproving everyone because he can't, or because he really does not give a damn what you and other detractors wish to think. Says right in the dojo guidelines: "To renounce avarice, indolence and obstinacy".

    So what if you think BBT is all bullshit and as a result, don't train in it? In the dojo's eyes, it's your loss. Go to the hombu's website, and you see next to no information about BBT. Why? If you are truly sincere in your desire to train, you'd show up and train. That's all there is.

    This is at odds with the continued practice of using swords, bo and all the other esoteric weaponry. The main reason these are taught is probably because no-one can actually do them anymore
    No it isn't. The biggest focus in Bujinkan is how a technique feels, not what's going on in a technique. Swords are similar to baseball bats and iron pipes. There are only so many ways you can swing an object. Bos are similar to long pipes. I know a few girls in the dojo who carry their hanbos with them everyday, everywhere for personal defense.

    Sword or baseball bat, you can defend yourself against them using very similar methods.

    I have seen the Hatsumi videos with the blinding powder in - if that is not outdated horseshit with no relevance I do not know what is
    That's outdated alright. It's not commonly practiced anymore except among the highest level of practitioners (and even then, it is for the sake of preservation of knowledge).

    You cannot be fucking serious!!! Similarities will exist because we have two arms and two legs...What pressure testing does the booj ever do? More to the point, why is it that whenever we see booj - and indeed many other TMA;s - in application in never looks anything like the original art?
    I will acknowledge that the techniques we are taught was never meant to be done 100% accurate in a real altercation.

    If you land the technique 100% correct, great. Otherwise, be prepared to be hit. We know this. In a knife fight, prepared to get cut. In a wrestling match, prepare to be slammed. In a gun fight, prepare to be shot. We train not because we want to land this technique 100% correct. We train to teach our bodies how to move to defend ourselves. Muscle memory, not conscious memory. I know I've practiced a certain punch interception to the point of "secondary reaction", where no thought is involved.

    No it is not. It is arguments like this that piss off the vast majority of practitioners of combat .

    Booj is at best unproven. At worst it is LARPing
    Tell that to this man:

    "Jeffrey Prather has trained for over 35 years in Japanese martial arts and is one of a very few 15th-degree blackbelt Shihan (master or gentleman instructor) in the world. He is licensed by Dr. Masaaki Hatsumi, Bujinkan Soke, the grandmaster of Budo Taijutsu. The Yamaneko Dojo is an official branch of Hatsumi Soke's dojo. Shihan Prather is a double recipient of Hatsumi Soke's Gold Medal. The first was awarded for his development of the Close Quarter Combat course for the U.S. Marine Corps. and the Army Special Operations Forces, the second for hosting the 1995 Tai Kai, which he had the honor of hosting a second time in 99'. Shihan Prather also has a 10th degree blackbelt in Shinkengata (real life combat). He has written for publications such as Black Belt magazine and has taught the police and military all over the world. Documentation and references available."

    Marine Corp CQC not proven enough for you?

    And why is survival less important than historical authenticity to you? Who gives a damn if your moves had 3000 years of heritage behind them? The Marine Corp does not give a damn, and neither does the IDF. Why? Because these people train to survive, and so do we. Do you know what's on our tests as Myu Kyus (the first rank)? Dojo history and etiquette, and even then, we get a simple question about it.

    That's it. The rest of the way involves pure survival techniques. No one in the dojo really cares if it has 1 year of history or 5000. If it works, it's good taijutsu.
    Last edited by dothackRAVE; 11/08/2007 3:50pm at .
  10. Fitz is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/08/2007 3:48pm


     Style: Judo, Tomiki Aikido, ??

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You can find better examples then Mr. Prather, and frankly probably should.
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