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  1. 9chambers

    Guest

    Posted On:
    10/28/2003 12:30am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    well, yea

    You need muscle covering up some of those bones and you need it to use a lot of important techniques. Techniques of restraint and throws and wrestling, all that stuff requires strength. Everyone should train to build strength.

    A balanced fighter with strength and speed can be more valuable than a fighter who has just one or the other. Of course skill and smarts are important too.

    I just don't think you have to sacrifice speed for strength. You just need enough strength. You just need enough speed. You don't need an overload of strength at the cost of all your speed. Finding a healthy, well-rounded, well-proportioned balance is the way to go.

    I think a lot of that depends on your frame. Some guys are just not meant to have arms like a tree trunk.
  2. Nid is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/28/2003 9:25am

    supporting member
     Style: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Re; the bicep peak discussion, that is wholly genetic. One can no more influence muscle shape, than they can eye color. What genetic disposition accounts for that? One factor is just how proportionally long one's muscle belly is compared to the tendons. If you have a relatively short muscle belly attached on both sides by a whole lot of tendon, that will give the impression of more definition. So, if one can get that short muscle to grow very large in circumference, you have a very astheticaly desirable muscle for body building...whether you like it or not. The other factor is just how "high" the muscle rides on the humerus.

    And then there's the starving and dehydration which puts "body builders" on the cusp of a coma. Eejits.

    I think you have to train fast if you want to be fast.
    There's training and conditioning. You train skill, while you condition your body to better serve ANY skill. Many elite swimmers (the smart ones) use the water for little more than absoloutly perfecting every millimeter of their strokes; they make sure they can maintain form while fatiqued; they even have a computer analyze videos of it to make sure each and every movement serves some sort of purpose. But, they also condition their bodies in ways completely unrelated to the specific task at hand.
  3. Djimbe is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/28/2003 8:11pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    *SIGH*

    9Chambers :

    If you push a one lb weight with one lb of Force , nothng will happen . If you push it with TWO lbs of Force it will move a TINY TINY bit . If you push it with 1000 lbs of force it will likley fly straight through the wall .

    Now , lets try that with Hansspeed :

    If you can generate enough foce to bench Press 600 lbs at 3-5 Mph
    , then how fast do you think that that SAME AMOUNT OF FORCE will push your EMPTY hand ? (As in when you Punch)

    Think about it .
  4. 9chambers

    Guest

    Posted On:
    10/28/2003 11:37pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    >If you push it with 1000 lbs of force it will
    >likley fly straight through the wall .

    Not if you push it slowly. :P
    Last edited by 9chambers; 10/28/2003 11:41pm at .
  5. Nid is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/29/2003 12:49am

    supporting member
     Style: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    But, again, if you lift X-mass steadily there will be no acceleration, thus no force. Gravity is already trying to accelerate it downwards towards earth. To lift (really, continue lifting) a mass at a constant velocity requires that your force-output equals that of gravity's influence. Remember, we're talking about a theoretical mass which is ALREADY moving in one direction; forget about the parts where it starts and stops in the real world. It has momentum (the relationship between mass and velocity) on it's side, that's why it doesn't take 101 pounds of force to continue moving 100 pounds at a constant velocity...in theory. The real world application involves things like overcoming inertia, friction, etc.
    Last edited by Nid; 10/29/2003 1:03am at .
  6. Nid is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/29/2003 1:05am

    supporting member
     Style: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    If you push a one lb weight with one lb of Force...nothing will happen.
    Well, provided you don't have to overcome inertia and other such things to actually get it moving in the first place, 1 lb of force will neccesarily maintain the upward movement of a 1 lb weight at a *constant* velocity.
    Last edited by Nid; 10/29/2003 1:18am at .
  7. Djimbe is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/29/2003 3:55am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Originally posted by keinhaar
    Well, provided you don't have to overcome inertia and other such things to actually get it moving in the first place, 1 lb of force will neccesarily maintain the upward movement of a 1 lb weight at a *constant* velocity.

    Dude , I seriously sometimes wonder if you only post to attempt to "Sound mart" . You throw aroun a lot of crap from year one Physics and Secondary School Biology , but none of it pertains in ANY way to the actual Subject at hand .

    The ONLY reason that ppl are asking these queries (ANYTHING about Physical Training) in THIS Context is to know how they should BEST do it for the Martial Arts . THAT is where you START from . Drop all the Theoretical Bullshit , and the " I Was Just Playing Devils Advocate" crap . No one cares about anything but the BEST way to Improve their MA , or the Effects of their MA . All youre doing is creating Confusion , and in the realm of PT people want RESUILTS , not DEBATE . This isnt Toastmasters , and you arent EVER EVER EVER going to get better Results using that "Time Under Load" horseshit than you will Lifting 3-5 Reps to Failure . Hang ALL DAY doing half a Pullup , itl just make you a shittier Martial Artist .

    How does this little Rant apply to the above ?

    Unless you live in some Sci Fi Universe wherein you DONT have to overecome Inertia , what was the fucking POINT of this Post at all ? Lets trade a little bit of that urge to "Sound Smart" for a little "Being Actually Helpful" or "Sounding Wise" .

    You seriously sound like you have either never been to a Gym before , or like you have never done anything more than made Newbie Gains in your entire Life . (Newbies can do anything)

    Put DOWN the Testbook , and pick UP the Iron .
  8. Djimbe is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/29/2003 4:01am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Originally posted by keinhaar
    But, again, if you lift X-mass steadily there will be no acceleration, thus no force. Gravity is already trying to accelerate it downwards towards earth. To lift (really, continue lifting) a mass at a constant velocity requires that your force-output equals that of gravity's influence. Remember, we're talking about a theoretical mass which is ALREADY moving in one direction; forget about the parts where it starts and stops in the real world. It has momentum (the relationship between mass and velocity) on it's side, that's why it doesn't take 101 pounds of force to continue moving 100 pounds at a constant velocity...in theory. The real world application involves things like overcoming inertia, friction, etc.
    This , also , has brought NOTHING to this discussion , and helps NO ONE learn ANYTHING about Training Methodology , or why/how it works .

    Never forget the Real World Crap .

    Its the Real World for fucks sake . I said 2 lbs on a 1 lb weight would move it a TINY bit , that was DUE to fricxtion and all that other esoteric bullshit that you used to take away from the actual topic at hand , which is TRAINING .
  9. Djimbe is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/29/2003 5:17am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Originally posted by keinhaar
    Djimbe,

    You're article is ...actually kind of sound. It's your implied interpretation I have the problem with.
    There is NO Implication in my "interperetation" In fact , Im not "Interpereting" anything , the guy is speaking pretty fraking Frankly , and , well , if youre "Interpereting" it any differently , Id say that thats because youre trying AWFULLY HARD to do so .

    Good example of what I'm talking about. It's not just them who use those fibers during such activities, it's everyone.
    Whats your Point ? You understood what he meant , asdid everyone else . He didnt say things with a Machine-Like , Poindexteresque perfection . The guy is a Meathead , and he said it well enough for you , I , and everyone else that comprehends English Fluently to understand what the **** he was on about .

    Nobody likes a Grammar Whore .

    But what's MORE important is that they already HAVE more (provided they excel particularly well at what they do compared to the mean population).
    No .

    They DEVELOPED more IN ORDER to Excel at what they excel at . You have more Type I Fibres in yoru Calf because you walk on it all the time , they arent "Naturally There" , youy develop them over a Lifetime . This also means that Recruiting Type II fibres CAN be done , it just takes a while to see the Effects of .

    It's also hard to take it seriously when one uses terms of physics incorrectly. Muscles don't produce power. It's an altogether moot point to even mention watts, or horsepower when speaking of internal conditions. Yes, from a body's end-point to the physical mass which it MIGHT move; that can be measured in such terms, but not the process which initiates it. Muscle contraction is a bio-chemical process which doesn't have to neccesarily result in ANY external movement.

    You know what , MOST ppl that ARENT physicists (Or Anal-Retentive) use the words Power and Force Interchangeably . Get the **** over it . You knew what he meant the INSTANT you read it , and he was correct in his POINT . Thats like saying that his Sentance is False because he made a Typo .


    Yet, this isn't a bad example of how it happens. This goes with the grain of what I just said.

    No , it dosent .

    Not even a little bit .

    You, however, think it's desirable to consciously by-pass those fibers which you feel don't need to be trained for general application.
    As does every Championchip-Level athlete , Coach , and Trainer in History . You Do NOT see Marathoners with a Huge Type IIa Build , and you do NOT see SUCCESSFUL MMA Fioghters with a Type I build .

    No disagreement here. It says powerlifters are brutally strong for this reason. What they fail to add is that they are brutally strong, and honed to a razor's edge for those 3 specific lifts.
    Please provide proof - ANY Proof , that this statement is capable of holdingmore water than a Seive . Power Lifting Principles can be appklied to EVERY SINGLE INDIVIDUAL MUSCLE GROUP IN THE BODY . This ERASES the Idea that it "Only Works For Those Lifts" it works for any & ALL Muscles That you apply the Principle (95% of 1rm Training) to ! INDIVIDUALLY , as WELL as in a Group .

    I, for one, can't think of any sport (other than powerlifting itself) which is "maked or breaked" by being able to undertake a perfected high-bar squat.
    Then you dont know anything about the Discussion at hand , or about Sports in General .

    The discussion at hand isnt about being "Made or Broken" (as ANAL as you are about everyone ELSES Grammar , and you say "Maked Or Breaked" ??? WTF ???) Its how can we , as Martial Artists , get the MOST out of our bodies for our Goals through Progressive Resistance Training . Not what "May Have Some Effect" , but what is MOST effective . No one wants to know how to be HALF good at something , they want to know how to be the BEST that THEY can be .

    And there are a LOT opf Sports that are GREATLY helped by Squatting the most that a body can ... and they DO JUST THAT in their Training .

    However, it would behoove them to have more metabolic ability (which CAN translate into greater force and mechanical work) which applies to EVERY movement even if it means not having a razor sharp 1RM squat.
    This is so far away from TOUCHING reality (Even Through Incidental Contact) that Im afraid that I dont know how to even Respond to it .

    ALL the recruiting of Neurons does is make the Muscle Fire Faster/Contract Harder . It DOSENT MATTER WETHER OR NOT YOUR SQUATTING OR WIPING YOUR ASS . You Use the Excercise to RAISE THE MUSCLES MAXIMUM CONTRACTILITY . Thats IT . There is NOTHING "move Specific" ABOUT it . It will Fire Harder because you have taught iot to , EVERY TIME YOU WANT IT TO .

    NO MATTER THE ACTIVITY .

    See the difference? The increased neurologic efficiency is VERY TASK SPECIFIC. Who CARES about squatting skill in a sport?
    No , it is NOT Task Specific iN ANY WAY .

    GO FIND AND SLAP WHOMEVER TOLD YOU THAT LIE .

    EVERYONE from EVERY Sport Squats . It is considered one of the BEST excercises for all-Around Fitness and Athleticism , and has been for over 50 years now . statements like this make me wonder if you even GO to a Gym .

    And there is NOTHING that says that you must ONLY use this Principle in the Squat , either ! You can use this SAME PRinciple on your Biceps , Calves , Shrugs , Triceps , Back Rows , ANYTHING ! It is to be pplied to EVERY Lift in the Gyum , NOT just the ones you think of as "Power Lifts"



    Yet, in a higher rep (TUL!) set, the coveted fibers are STILL recruited and fatigued.
    Umm , NO the ones that you DONT (type 1) want are Recruited . Didnt you read the Nifty , Handy Little Chart ??? You want MORE weight , and LESS Time uder it as a Martial Artist . more properly put , you ant SO MUCH weight that you CANT spend any more than 5 Reps under it . Why ? So that you arent SLOWED DOWN by having Muscle Mass that WONT fire as quicly as the Rest . You want as MUCH of your Musculatiure to fire as Hard , and as Quickly as possible , so that you havent any "Dead Weight" (Type I Fibres) .

    Go ahead and recruit all those muscle fibers at once for the squat...I hope you're called upon to squat an opponent.
    Once again , you only WANT Type II fibres , not ALL Types . Its not possible to do , so you want the Highest % that YOU can Get .

    And actually , I have been . Its called a Fireman's . Ive also used the Textbook "Body Slam" on an Opponent before . in fact there are a Laundary List of Moves that the Power Lifts DIRECTLY help you with/Simulate . High Clean Pulls are the Suplexes , Deadlifts are the Single/Double legs and Ankle Picks . And doing those Lifts at Half-Assed weights for five hours is NOT going to help me get an over 300 lb opponent into the Air at will . Its just NOT .
  10. Ronin is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/29/2003 9:03am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Shi Ja Quan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Raw strength and power are the primary goals for strength training, for MA, secondary would be the added mass and weight gain, for some.
    Djimbe is correct that the under 5 rep system is, indeed, best for developing raw power and strength WITHOUT adding mass, unless of course you eat to add mass.
    Sometimes we forget that, the only way to get bigger, is to get bigger, ie: eat to gain weight AND strength train.
    IF that is your goal.
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