Kajukenbo: The Perfected Art of Dirty Streetfighting

[danjo]

Then you'd mostly use grappling anyway right? Punching the little shits is out of the question, even if they deserve it.

I don't think we're on a different wavelength here, I've just read some of your post history and I agree with pretty much most of what you say. Your "sportive mindset" comment just triggered my asshole button... I leave it at this, I think it's possible to train for sport and still have the right mindset for fighting, because I don't think the mindset is one you can necessarily train anyway.

Mostly grappling, pushing, holding etc. is correct, but not on the ground rolling around.

By "Sportive Mindset" we mean one that thinks of fights having rules and therefore emplying techniques that would only be safely used with such rules in place.

[Lu Tze]

Grappling involves more than butt scooting around!?! God, I think you just revolutionised my judo game!

A couple of counterpoints.

The rules that are there for safety allow techniques to be trained repetitively at full force and resistance without risk of injury. That means they can be trained much much more than unsafe techniques, so you're more likely to be able to pull them off when it counts. (actually, I'm not sure this is what you mean. If you mean things like a boxing clinch or judo turtle, which pretty much only come about because of the rules, then I agree with you.)

Even street fights can have rules. Some are unwritten rules about fighting dirty (which are probably different in different places, and some can be more easily ignored than others), some are personal constraints (I wouldn't bite. I'm not a vegetarian or anything, I just don't want to catch something) and some are constraints imposed by the law (for example, knock someone out and you can probably talk your way out of a cell, maim them and it gets a bit more difficult).

[Ke?poFist]

There are a lot of youtube clips of guys taking on multiple attackers in real situations. They were all done successfully from a standing position. THer are no guarantees, but the odds of surviving a multiple attaker scenario are much better if you're on your feet.

I completely agree, but you didn't exactly answer my question. If someone demonstrates a clean strike (whether it be a fist, foam bat, or whatever you use in the bull ring) to the back of someones head, do you stop the match the way you stop it if someone demonstrates a stomp to the head of someone on the ground?

Again, you have the sportive mentality if you look at it as "bail out" rather than "lose" if you can't extract yourself from that position in three to five seconds.

Semantics. So who loses? The person in top or bottom guard? Who's hypothetical imaginary friends stomp on who? Or do they both count as failures at the drill?

Like I said, and have said on other forums in regards to this, I see the value of sparring under different scenarios. Whether it be with varying time limits, or giving one person a weapon, you are outnumbered, or whatever other variables you can mix in. But if the majority of the time you apply your mixed range sparring with an arbitrary ground time limit, that is far more of a handicap to your training as opposed to those who let matches go on.

You don't learn how to escape those positions by just letting your instructor make your sparring partner get off you. It's also worth noting you also don't learn to deal with the stress and draining effects of a prolonged fight that very well can happen despite the speedy deadliness of the streets.

Well, I think you nailed it there. I've trained in BJJ and High School Wrestling. I keep that up where I train now as well as working JJJ, police restraint and control techs (it helps when your instructor is retired LEO) and Catch techniques with the guys I train with. So the odds that someone will jump me in the street and have superior grappling sklills are very small. Not a lot of BJJ purple belts going around jumping people.

You train for what you're most likely to run into.

Agreed.

kempofist, have you really drunk the koolaid that deep?

I switched from red to blue. It's all delicious :)

[SifuJason]

Like I said, and have said on other forums in regards to this, I see the value of sparring under different scenarios. Whether it be with varying time limits, or giving one person has a weapon, you are outnumbered, or whatever other variables you can mix in. But if the majority of the time you apply your mixed range sparring with an arbitrary ground time limit, that is far more of a handicap to your training as opposed to those who let matches go on.

You don't learn how to escape those positions by just letting your instructor make your sparring partner get off you. It's also worth noting you also don't learn to deal with the stress and draining effects of a prolonged fight that very well can happen despite the speedy deadliness of the streets.

I completely agree with this. About 80% of the time, my students spar with no time limits, or other such rules (heck, ball shots and small joint manips are both legal...). However, I noticed that a lot of people will just wade in, get a takedown and then roll for a while, ignoring that 1) if what they had waded through had been at full contact, they would have been KOed), and 2) you want to be able to avoid shots and quickly finish someone, standing or on the ground, but the key is quickly.

Hence, sometimes we use time limits, or no grappling (or no striking for that matter) to get people into good habits. If we do a more "street-oriented" sparring session (like at my last test), you get 5 seconds to get up (by this we mean at 0 or only 1 knee on the ground, with you on top wailing on them, or standing completely) or submit the other person, before the rest of the people surrounding the match come in and start (gently) beating on both people (that way the sparring participants can also work using their opponent as a living shield). These rules emphasis quick finishes, which are also important to work.

[LI GUY 1]

So you had 5 seconds on the ground or else the rest of the class would act as multiple attackers?
Where were these multiple attackers during the standup? Multiple attackers only fight once the fight hits the ground? How is that realistic?

Either train/spar in a multiple attacker setting or do it one on one. You train for both as different strategies are used for both situations.

To keep the sparring realistic once a new fighter joins the fight he should stay there. Also, it should be random, they do not just magically appear once a fight hits the ground, right?

[SifuJason]

So you had 5 seconds on the ground or else the rest of the class would act as multiple attackers?
Where were these multiple attackers during the standup? Multiple attackers only fight once the fight hits the ground? How is that realistic?

Either train/spar in a multiple attacker setting or do it one on one. You train for both as different strategies are used for both situations.

To keep the sparring realistic once a new fighter joins the fight he should stay there. Also, it should be random, they do not just magically appear once a fight hits the ground, right?

They did multiman fighting as a completely seperate event at the test. This was more of a punishment for them staying on the ground too long (with this rules-set), that also allowed a little teaching of how to use your opponent for cover. It wasn't designed to be a multi-man drill at all, for all of the pitfalls you mentioned are correct.

[LI GUY 1]

They did multiman fighting as a completely seperate event at the test. This was more of a punishment for them staying on the ground too long (with this rules-set), that also allowed a little teaching of how to use your opponent for cover. It wasn't designed to be a multi-man drill at all, for all of the pitfalls you mentioned are correct.

I see, I thought about that after my post but was too lazy to post again.

[danjo]

So you had 5 seconds on the ground or else the rest of the class would act as multiple attackers?
Where were these multiple attackers during the standup? Multiple attackers only fight once the fight hits the ground? How is that realistic?

Either train/spar in a multiple attacker setting or do it one on one. You train for both as different strategies are used for both situations.

To keep the sparring realistic once a new fighter joins the fight he should stay there. Also, it should be random, they do not just magically appear once a fight hits the ground, right?

I agree. We also do multiple attackers from standing and the fighter's do stay in until the end.

Again, these are drills to increase your ability to handle these situations better. Nothing is fool proof or perfect. It's like one of the Dog Brothers's mottos: "Die Less Often" by training this way. That goes for gun, knife and club defenses as well as multiple attacker scenarios. None of them guarantee success. But what guarantees failure is not training for any of them at all.

[BLACCBILLYJACC]

[ If someone openly admits his conception of a black belt is someone that loses to an untrained guy with less than a couple hours of full-contact training, he's a shitty teacher.[/QUOTE]


ROTFLMAO!!!