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  1. melk is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/06/2007 6:54am


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Defining Fraud

    So I asked this question in the midst of another thread which is likely to get shipped off to trollshido, though I think it is a valid question.

    When does self-aggrandizement become fraud?

    If a person claims legit titles from BS orgs is that fraud?


    I am just curious as to what standards this forum holds, and what the consensus(if there is one) is on when the line is crossed into outright fraud.
  2. chalkieusa is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/06/2007 7:11am


     Style: Kenpo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by melk
    So I asked this question in the midst of another thread which is likely to get shipped off to trollshido, though I think it is a valid question.

    When does self-aggrandizement become fraud?

    If a person claims legit titles from BS orgs is that fraud?


    I am just curious as to what standards this forum holds, and what the consensus(if there is one) is on when the line is crossed into outright fraud.
    To me, fraud is claiming titles and/or ranks that were not earned, and then using such to obtain money and/or position from people who do not know any better.

    Getting rank from BS orgs is just BS. You get what you pay for.
  3. Hanniballistic is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/06/2007 8:59am


     Style: JKD & Mok'bara

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    It depends on what you get with the party concerned. Typically, as long as what the give you delivers the goods it matters less about the genesis of their skills (I say this because I assume that this is in reference to the Sonnon thread)

    There is a grey area with a lot of martial artists and their resumes and sometimes you have to look beyond face value. For example, I have fought Michael Bisping. Also I have taught British Armed Forces unarmed combat.

    As long as the credentials have at least 80% truth I would probably let it slide but "appraoch with caution". If they claimed stuff that was patently untrue and could be proven as such I would be less inclined to stay and listen to anything else

    Take an Ashida Kim - his claims are not unprovable per se, they are just way out there. His writing is lucid and full of "Mr. Miyagisms" but the fact is that he sucks! His technique is terrible, his cannot show a lineage and will not fight to silence critics. Look him up here on bullshido.

    Then you have a guy like Coda Scott - he claimed ranks and levels that he simply did not have full stop. Likewise his ability level is shockingly bad. He too was exposed.

    Sonnon is an example of a guy with unquestioned ability and knowledge who uses a bit of...artistic license. Is he full of B.S. ? No, he represents himself as a Sambo world champion and in fairness he probably is. He states he is a "Distinguised" MOS....It is an honour to hold that rank so maybe distinguised refers to that honour rather than the award itself. This is where the "grey" comes into it.

    Now, if he claimed he was a UFC champion undefeated in 15 fights? That would be BS


    Now, with the Bisping thing I lost and it was in 1994, but as long as no-one asks any further details it is easy for me to claim "I fought Bisping in Vale Tudo" without it being too much of a stretch.

    As for the armed forces thing - when I was in the TA I did an 90 minutes of H2H teaching with the unit I was with back in 1996 as something a bit different for one of our Thursday night meetings. Again it is not a lie as of fact, more an example taken out of context
  4. melk is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/06/2007 9:32am


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Actually I was hoping to put Sonnon aside(the truth about him is out there for anyone who wants it) and discuss this as more of an intellectual issue. The point of the MABS forum is supposed to be about standards and fraud, so I was looking for some conversation and possible consensus on what those standards should be, where should we place the bar, at which point is the line crossed into fraud.

    For instance my neighbor's kid is getting private lessons from a BB from a local dojo(I wrote about this in depth on another thread http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=62153). Yes the guy teaching him has a legit BB from his org, and his org is recognized by a larger org here that also recognizes KM. Now that this BB can't fight his way out of a wet paper bag, does that make it fraud, or just bad customer choice?
  5. Sam Browning is online now

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    Posted On:
    11/06/2007 9:41am

    hall of famestaff
     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'll try to dig up some legal definitions tonight. I would suggest that it would involve the telling of a substantial lie or misrepresentation to obtain something of value. Whether it be money or aclaim.
  6. MSphinx is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/06/2007 9:42am


     Style: Muay Thai

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by melk
    Actually I was hoping to put Sonnon aside(the truth about him is out there for anyone who wants it) and discuss this as more of an intellectual issue. The point of the MABS forum is supposed to be about standards and fraud, so I was looking for some conversation and possible consensus on what those standards should be, where should we place the bar, at which point is the line crossed into fraud.

    For instance my neighbor's kid is getting private lessons from a BB from a local dojo(I wrote about this in depth on another thread http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=62153). Yes the guy teaching him has a legit BB from his org, and his org is recognized by a larger org here that also recognizes KM. Now that this BB can't fight his way out of a wet paper bag, does that make it fraud, or just bad customer choice?
    It's probably bad customer choice. Just like how there are chartered architects who make buildings that collapse, there are black belts from legit orgs that can't fight. Professional accreditation does not always equal skill.
  7. Hanniballistic is offline
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    By the Hoary Hand of Hoggoth.....

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    Posted On:
    11/06/2007 9:47am


     Style: JKD & Mok'bara

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The example of the BB giving lessons may be a bad choice - the flip side is that good fighters are not always good teachers and vice versa (look at Angelo Dundee)

    For me - within an MA context at any rate - it essentially means "delivers what it says". This is why I have such a downer on Choi Kwang Do but not XMA
  8. melk is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/06/2007 9:53am


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    So what I am hearing so far is that we basically have three categories:

    1)Greedy bastards who massage their bios as much as conceivably possible without crossing the line into outright lie, just misdirections or minor misrepresentations in order to inflate prices for what would otherwise be standard fare at a decent dojo.

    2)McDojo's, those that though come from legit orgs turn out BB's and sell things that will be of no help in the street, but are completely honest about where they learned it from, and make a business on TKD-moms and unsuspecting others.

    3) Fraudulant bastards AKA Ashida kim. No pedigree, nothing to back up claims... essentially a lot of hot air with no substance.

    Of which MABS deals primarily with the latter two?
  9. GoldenJonas is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/06/2007 9:57am

    Join us... or die
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Samuel Browning
    I'll try to dig up some legal definitions tonight. I would suggest that it would involve the telling of a substantial lie or misrepresentation to obtain something of value. Whether it be money or aclaim.

    Sam is correct. However, you need to be specific as to what context you are using the word "fraud". People tend to throw the "fraud" word around where someone is simply lying.

    The legal, simplified, definition of "Fraud" is:

    Quote Originally Posted by Black's Law Dictionary

    Fraud. An intentional perversion of the truth for the purpose of inducing another to act in reliance upon it with some valuable thing belonging to him or to surrender a legal right.
    Someone who uses inflated credentials or false, made up, fight records or history to induce a consumer to pay that person for instruction is a "Fraud". Absent the person receiving something from a consumer who was acting in reliance upon the persons misrepresentations of truth, all you have is a lying dirtbag, NOT a fraud.

    Further, the consumer, or person acting in reliance, simply has to do some act or give up some legal right due to the person's misrepresentations; it does not have to be monetary to qualify as "Fraud".
  10. melk is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/06/2007 9:57am


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Hanniballistic
    The example of the BB giving lessons may be a bad choice - the flip side is that good fighters are not always good teachers and vice versa (look at Angelo Dundee)

    For me - within an MA context at any rate - it essentially means "delivers what it says". This is why I have such a downer on Choi Kwang Do but not XMA
    Sorry, it was a rather lengthy explanation on the other thread, and only parts are germaine to this discussion, so I shouldn't have used it as an example.
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