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  1. Shiseiryu1 is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/05/2008 9:19pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Shisei Ryu Aikibudo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I will answer these questions to the best of my abiity and truthfully.......

    1. What was the name of the ship that Marx served on in the Pacific fleet during his Navy experience? What years did he serve?

    -- I am not sure as I was a teenager when I first started in his school on Bolton Ave, in Alex, La in 1972. I never have seen a DD214 to indicate his service, length of service or the discharge action status but this could be verified with some work and a request from the St Louis records of DoD I think

    2. Can he provide specifics as to what he was arrested for or convicted of during his tumultuous youth and young adulthood? For example, a specific year, location, and crime? For example, arrested for misdemeanor possession of drugs in New Orleans in 1955. (Note: not saying this is true, this is only an example). Given his reported history as a pimp and of going into the Navy in lieu of prison, this shouldn't be too hard.

    --- I have no proof of his criminal record, if any, and since he is almost 70, it would be hard to verify, I dont know about his "street cred", it could be true or it could be part of KD lore, in any case, it may or may not be relevant in this discussion unless he is/has used this to create an aura of "badness". I never personally heard a story about him going into the Navy in lieu of being jailed, I did however hear stories from him about being a "pimp, doing some drugs etc"

    3. Can he provide specifics or substantiation as to his claimed affiliation with “Superfoot” Wallace, Chuck Norris, Cynthia Rothrock, Brian Wilson of the Beach Boys, and other notable figures?

    -- My personal observation is based on having spent one on one time with KM during the 70s, I was a kid, I had a car, I drove him to some tournaments in LA/MS/TX, I was his uke during some demos etc. He sat and judged kata and kumite bouts as a black belt, and he did get some pictures standing with these people, as to whether he was actually a close friend, I dont know but yes, he did talk to them, he did know them, they "knew" him, and there are pictures to show him in the same immediate space with them....as to Brian Wilson, I can not speak for that one. You have to remember this was during the 70s and Sensei Wallace was in his heyday, Sensei Norris also, Sensei Rothrock a "star" as well....folks wanted to be seen with them and around them, all part of building "cred"....

    4. What institution did he submit his doctoral dissertation to that constitutes his published 1979 work “Martial Arts Therapy?”

    --- I had at one time boxes of these books, KM was rather unique in his vocalization of this concept but it was an outgrowth "I think" of Jigaro Kano's conversion of JuJutsu into an educational system, I feel that KM simply took this concept and ran with it, putting in his perspective, it is a great concept, but as to KM being the sole, "creator" of this concept, I dont know.....it was a great attempt to vocalize this....remember this was in the 70s and early 80s, no internet, no emial just libraries...paper books......the environment was quite different then....Id have to go pull out a copy and look, as to cited sources and documentation....etc....I am not aware that he use this document as basis for a "PHD" as I remember his use of "PHD" much sooner, as in the early 70s, when he cited a PHD in "Trichology" which is the study of hair essentially...remember his "trade" was as a barber....he cut hair.....for a while....I think personally KM was struggling to validate himself so he sought out orgainizations who would "certify" him and add to his "credentials".....this was part of the PHD from Greece...but I am not aware personally of any research done, or did I ever see him writing or talk about his work in this effort, all of a sudden he "had it"....remember also in the 70s many folks were scurrying about trying to validate a plethora of MAs that were being born....many in the US....Im not saying right or wrong...just observation....

    5. Does Marx consider the combatives he learned in the Navy to have Asian influences?

    --- I remember KM listing a rank of "1st Mokuroku" in some documents relatiing to Judo, that is based on the old "Menkyo" system, I was a teenager then, I remember him wearing a black belt, then I remember seeing him in a red/white belt as a newly proclaimed 6th dan....He used to tell stories about training with Japanese masters, etc but that died off over time, he later recanted and said he had NO training after years of this lore.....he also claimed at one time to have trained at a Christian (catholic) school ran by "Brothers" who taught him JuJutsu....there were many stories floated around which changed over time...back and forth....I think his real MA training was primarily in Judo, there are some other high dan level MA who will validate his training with Geis Sensei in Houston Tx.....but as to the EXACT level reached I dont know...I have some old certificates of KMs that he gave to me.....I may be able to find them and see....Id guess Shodan or Nidan at the max ,,but "mokuroku" is an entry into the rolls, not a Menkyo for teaching.....if my mind is right.....

    6. Has Marx or any of his instructors ever claimed that there is an official martial art of Louisiana or an official state holiday for Keichu-do? Have those claims been made by him or for him in any publication?

    -----I was serving in the USAF I think in either Alaska or VA at this time, I would need a date....I have seen the letters, they appeared official, but I have not heard any references in LA since then regarding KD being an official MA of LA or a celebrated holiday....I live here, I grew up here....but yes KM has made this claim for years.....is it important...maybe.....if you are trying to establish a pattern of behavior...

    7. Does Marx have a nephew named Micah Lopez? If so, which sibling of Marx is his parent?

    --- Interesting, never heard of him but it could be....could be...

    8. Does Marx believe he is the true “Father of American Karate?” How does he consider himself better suited for that title than, say, Robert Trias?

    ---- I think he would like to be viewed as this, whether thats "true" is in the eyes of his students I guess.....but its certainly a bold statement...as there can only be ONE father of American Karate.....I always personally viewed KD as s self defense style and not a pure Karate style even though we used the moniker "Keichu Ryu Karate-Do" for years.....or "Karate Do Jutsu" which I feel iis closer....I cant really say ....some may fight to the death saying yes....I say, only KM can answer this.....I dont think so, personally....and this is not an indiictment of the man...its just based on overall impact on US MA....

    9. Here is a copy of educational credentials for Marx provided earlier in the other Keichu Do thread:


    Is this an accurate reflection of his education? Can he vouch for or affirm that these were accredited institutions of learning during his time there?

    Yes he did get a BA in Psych from LC and a MA from NW LA...fact, but the PHD is a "stretch".....he had a peice of paper....from Greece, bu he also had certificates from other orgs in India the mid east, Lebanon etc.....you have to put this all in context...there was not a real structure to ranking, still is not....so different groups would set up and then exchange "cretifications" and "recognitions".....some were certificate mills....some not.....but yes his highest academic achievement I am aware of is an MA......from NW LA

    10. Marx asserts that Keichu-do “won over 100 world Championship titles including 2 gold and 3 silver medals in the Junior Olympics held in Chicago in 1985.” Can he specify what these medals and titles were in? Particularly, what proportion were for free-sparring/kumite as opposed to kata/forms, and under the auspices of which governing body?

    --- Well in the 70s and 80s we competed out the wazzoo....LOL! I remember going to sometimes two tournaments a month...sometimes from LA to MN, etc....all driving....etc....we won a lot and we lost a lot.....sheer exposure would dictate a lot of wins....some of which I had, some of which I witnessed....I never counted them.....but Id say in the 100s....easily...whether they were all WORLD championships...well......that would be hard to verify.....but we did well....and one problem with KD was it was so immersed in the tournament curcuit in the 70s and 80s that katas were changed on a whim....simply to win.....mostly for flash and not due to principle...but remember the only way to validate a style then was tournaments....very little was written and no internet.....etc......you had to compete.....and many of us did that....we were almost forced to do this or promotion would be slow.....our system had requirements but if you were not a good tournament fighter you would not move up quickly.....Id say from my memory many many of our folks were about equal in fighting and kata wins...personally I preferred kata but could be "urged" to fight....we had talented folks....but we were not bullet proof, nor invincicble.....we went, we competed....sometimes we won......

    11. Marx has said that one of his students, Jeff Crothers, has won 14 world championships in every division he’s entered. What tournaments were these in, and under whose authority?

    --- Cant verify this claim

    12. Marx claims he’s only lost one fight to an Earl Adair. Does he still maintain this claim? Does he include his pro/amateur boxing record as part of this statement?

    ---- He still claims this....yes this includes all his "records" but only last night he challenged me to a no holds barred fight ....as he said lets "get er done".....he is almost 70....I think not....while I dont agree with what he has done, I certianly would not fight a near 70 yr old man.....he may have conducted himself poorly at times but I will not disrespect him that way...but I never saw any official papers to verfiy his boxing career ...only ancecotal lore....

    13. Marx claims he’s trained a boxer who competed in the Pan-American games. What is/was the name of that boxer?

    ---- Never saw any proof of this, but that doesnt mean it did not happen....

    14. Does Marx consider his work “Martial Arts Therapy” to be representative and inclusive of research completed on martial arts and their psychological benefits at the time (1979)? Does he consider his work to still have authoritative, relevant merit with its publication in 2005?

    ---- Id say he probably feels that...but that is him...the term MAT is his I think as I never heard it before him, but I never saw his raw research or data gathering techniques....I dont agree with all of his beliefs as stated in that book but its "interesting", but remember this is the same guy who used to pracitce "Dim Mak" and claim to heal folks with Ki or Chi, and who tried convince us that he had "super powers"....what he was good at was manipulating impressionable folks, but he was a "saleslman" for his art.....or at least "budding art"....so he did fabricate a lot of "lore".....stories etc.....some of it we knew was total BS, most of the time we just ignored it.....I personally remember him wearing a wettened dark brown wool glove and then taking it off, to touch someone with his fingers and saying that "dim mak" or death touch had made the brown spots.....fact...... but as to his writings....they were interesting and Im not sure under todays internet and vast research at out fingertips...what would occur with a simple google phrase search...was it all his work.....I think so.....only KM can answer that....but he had some squirrely things....he did....some good...

    15. Can Marx comment on his involvement with the group Perfect Liberty and the Silva Mind Control program? Particularly his claims that he healed hundreds of people solely through touch?

    ---- KM dabbled in a lot of spiritualism....I remember the PL "phase" were he wore a black "priest outfit" around at tournaments sometimes....and we all had to practice PL and donate via "hosho" envelopes which were given to us and we put our money into them and he suposedly sent that to PL HQ....but the PLl concepts were interesting and to a 14-15 yr old....seeking something, it was impressionable....he did also dabble in SMC but I never saw personally it brought into the dojo....but he did and does have a propensity for mixing religion and MA and I really dissagree with that....personally but Ueshiba did it too...with his religion...not the same however......

    16. Does Karl Marx claim Jewish ancestry? In what fashion?

    --- I remember hearing this but it was not drum beated much

    17. How distantly is Karl W. Marx related to the communist Karl Marx, if at all?

    ---- I never heard this and Id find it to be a surpise...I also know cajuns named "Edsel Jaguar Deville" too but you'd have to understand the region...LOL!

    18. Marx has a letter from James H. “Jim” Brown, the former Sec. of State of LA. on his website. The letter shows only one of what appears to be multiple pages, and possibly even cuts off a portion of the displayed page. Does Marx have the other portions/pages available?

    ---- I have seen the letter, but dont remember all the pages etc....to me it was not that big of a deal at the time and I was busy flying A-10s or teaching pilots so I didnt go to the event.....

    19. How does Marx respond to the fact Wikipedia deleted the “Keichu do” article due to non-notability? (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?...page=Keichu_Do)

    ---- KD is on Wiki now.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keichu_Do not sure what that means....does it make a style valid I dont know....

    20. Marx claims to have been in the Golden Gloves. Does he mean that he won a Golden Gloves or just competed?

    -------- I never saw anthing like a trophy or paper etc to show this....but heard the story often.....Id say competed....not sure if he "won"....

    21. Does Marx still base the mental aspects of Keichu-Do off the teachings of Tokumitsu Kanada (aka Kakuri-oya)?

    --- No he "converted" sometime ago to "Christianity" and PL fell by the wayside...PL was a phase for KM a manifestation ....agian he constanly dabbled in spiritualism etc.....

    22. Does Marx still believe in “Ki?” If he does, does he believe it comes from G-d? How much of that, if any, is a part of Keichu-Do or Keichu-Ryu?

    ---- I think he beleives all power comes from God....or Jesus....I dont talk to him about this and no longer really associate with him closely....so I cant say but he used to push the Ki thing.....a lot....to the point I think of obsession and it was an unneeded distraction from the training....he had us do "lmake your hand lift off your leg" etc......all BS.....

    23. Does Marx still consider colds, coronary heart disease, impotence, and Multiple Sclerosis (MS) as psychosomatic illnesses? In the case of MS, does he still believe it comes from “prolonged seething and jealousy?”

    ----- I think he still does.....he thinks there is a connection between body mind and spirit which are part of the Keichu three aspects of training...it made sense but it went too far....we all have 3 elements to our being...hardly new....he tied this in with his MAT concept....I feel he still believes this to be true but now add "Jesus" to the equation.....KM used ot think he could heal but now I think he would agree that Jesus heals....but some dont buy that either....

    24. Has Marx ever published works as new that were in fact, previously published in some way, shape, or form?

    ----Again when he wrote some of this stuff there was no internet...I think youd have to do a "phrase search" on key passages to check for plagurism...but I cant say either way.....he did a lot of "writing"....and at that time I was too young to check sources....or I was in the USAF abroad....so I really was too busy teaching or doing my duty.....

    25. What years was he divorced from his wife/wives and in what Parish?

    ----wow dont know this....but I think he was married a few times...but heck I have been too....LOL!

    26. Can he confirm his birthdate as August 10th, 1936?

    --- YES, this has been his birthdate as long as I have known him.....someone cna look at his DL if they could.....this is easy but 10 Aug....yep....36 sounds about right.....

    I hope this addresses what I know....as fact as far as I personally know from direct observation......I spent a lot of time with KM as a teen and went to a good many of tournaments with him...and served as his uke.....for demos ...

    I personally think KD is a "good style" but only as far as the person on the mat, either they can dance or not......I do remember a time when KD only had about 3-4 katas and the rest were made up as we started to compete in the early to mid to late 70s....but they changed on the whim of KM...most of the kata are "right leg oriented" if you look at the older ones.....some still are at schools that teach "Keichu Keri Zuki Waza", etc......not sure now....in that time there was no such thing as MMA we did mostly judo an jujutsu with some visits by master Kim who as in Baton Rouge (hapkido) etc.....KD was influenced by all this...we fought with sometimes no gear and sometimes with it.....some tournaments were contact, some not......not saying we did MMA but in dojo sparring we went from closing the gap, to take downs to chokes hold downs etc...whatever worked.....but I dont think it would be MMA as you all may know it....

    I think in some ways Karl Marx was a good man...with perhaps good intentions but he feel prey to his own needs.....and the style was sidetracked by this....and the constant forays into mixing religion and manipulating the minds of impressionable teens was "not coo"....did we learn a lot....well yep, we did.....is KD "valid" well Id say that depends on your measure.....

    It would depend on who is beind the "belt knot", as in who can "dance" and who can not.....do I feel I can handle myself..well yes.....but its due to other exposures in other arts as well....and Id hope at 50 yrs old Id know something....do I want to throw down with 20-30 yr olds.....nope.....you guys do this....I practice budo for different reasons....that is my own journey....

    Karl Marx made some mistakes ...but that doesnt make him the devil.....he had potential to do so much more....as a originator ...but he got sidetracked by his own ego, his inability to just enjoy the art he was formulatiing and to just tell the truth....no need to embelish resume's.....just be who you are....

    IMO if there is a lesson for me and perhaps "us" its just to find an art, practiice it with joy and if it fits you keep doing it, hone yourself...but if it does not work for you find one that does.....

    Some folks still practice Keichu...some dont.....whether that means its not a valid art,....well....heck....I dont know.....

    I hope this answers some questions.....

    GWD
  2. Judah Maccabee is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/05/2008 10:24pm

    supporting memberhall of fameBullshido Newbie
     Style: Krav / (Kick)Boxing / BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    GWD, thank you VERY much for your personal contributions to this. The perspective is invaluable.
  3. Shiseiryu1 is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/06/2008 5:24pm

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     Style: Shisei Ryu Aikibudo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    There is much I can say about Keichu, Im far from a "koolaid" drinker but if you look at the "intent" of the original founding of the style it was quite interesting.

    If folks do some reading they will find that Kano was only 22 when he embarked on his journey to "codify" the waza of modern Judo....from its origins..it was a life long evolution as did many founders of arts many now hail as benchmarks for modern MA and actually from which many MMA stylists pull thier techniques from....now Im NOT comparing Kano to Karl Marx but his ideas as presented in the dojo at the time of my entry were actually quite good....and if you read from todays perspective looking about 40 years back to say about the early 70s which I personally believe as the real start of KD....the only source document of the MA was a small booklet with the title Self Defense and Christianity through Keichu... note his reference to Christianity in this earliest book...at that time KD was more of a JuJutsu style with Judo and only one or two rudementary kata of whicih one was named Jute Ude Zuki....for 10 blocks and punches.....in the "about the author section KM listed himself as a MMA with a TR D, this was the reference to "Trichcology"...hw as working towards a BA in Psych at LA college in Pineville La....he also said he held 4th Dans in two other systems of self defense and a black belt in Judo...but also listed himself as a 6th dan as the highest rank in KD ...he did not promote himself but utilized other orgs for this.....he also listed himself as a "licensed minister of the Gospel" at that time.....he started his own org which was called the "Keichu Ryu Do Kan" HQ ....and listed his self defense experience as back 26 yrs at that time....he was about 34 or 35 at the time of this booklet....it was obvious he was influenced by Judo and its principles as well as some "modern" psychology of that time.....KM was big on TA, transanactional analysis...the old child/adult personas and thier manifestations which he talked about...no doubt influenced by his BA studies at the time..... In this booklet were various qoutations and verses which we were required to know.....etc....he listed 5 "self defense kata" which were things such as front choke, rear choke, full nelson etc.. and went to things like rope chokes attacks with knife chain, etc....then to 2/3/4/5 man defenses....etc.....looking back, some of this was not well grounded but at that time we learned them......something was better than nothing I guess......but you can see it was rooted in Judo and its self defense.....but with a new twist for "Americans".....

    We all experimented with this stuff and also we trained on heavy bags, fought pretty hard in the dojo and it was not uncommon to get pretty thrashed.....as safety gear really did not exist until the mid 70s....so we tried not to hit the face but we hit hte body pretty hard...with an average sparring "session" lasting about 3 mins or so, unless it got spirited.....we would go from closure to takedown to grapple etc.....Id say it was SIMILAR to MMA but not the same ball park.....we were not athletes...we were just fighters....remembver this was 40 yrs ago or so...in my case about 35...

    I would say KD was started out with some solid principles taken from Judo and influenced by what KM "thought" were good techniques but remember he only had "FOR REAL" about 2 yrs maybe of actual formal training in anything, he did box and could do some good damage and he was just a "testy, aggressive" man who liked a fight....but he was also not a "technician" as we know it now...he could not kick high, he was not flashy, he just did basic "gedan level" MA....pretty much hit, grab, takedown and thrash.....he did have what I feel now, was a fair working knowledge of Judo and he managed to have quest instuctors like I Young Kim from Baton Rouge to do clinics..etc...we went from org to org trying to find a place in MA world...

    In 79 KM had a mmuch more developed style with about 7 kata and the carry over of go kyo no waza from judo, plus the old 5 self defence kata....in essence the students and some of the early black belts through tournaments sort of validated the style...Karl Marx rarely fought and I never say him personally compete while I was under his direct insturction, but I heard he did a few times....in fighting but in the senior division I think....the point is the KD system was devleoped "literally on the backs and belts" of the young black belts with KM orchestrating the moves....and the changes to the system...over time his own manipulation of people, his inability to lead and to really graps what he had, was his own undoing.....his style only really has a "few" dojo now and "few practicioners'......accounting may vary.....

    In 1979 he started the WKCD or the World Kyung Chung Do org which I felt was influenced by some Koreans he was courting as he was trying to build "cred"....this org was run by me for a while when in Alaska and I did his certificates etc...he got the money....we did the admin work....trying to be "good students" This org finally fell on its face due to infighting and his top Sensei going off and attempting to salvage what they felt was a more suited expression of thier interpretation of Keichu, this resulted in "Shin Keichu by Mark Williams and myself creating a "ryu-ha" which became its own system more based Aiki....Shin Keichu had more influences from legitimate Karate Do and it exists today in LA.....a few others tried to go off and create their "ryu-ha" or branch styles but lacked the ability to coherently create them or jsut did not have the technical training to do so....most of the Senior Dans went off and studied under Masters with real backgrounds..as KM later recanted and said he had NO real instruction in anything but Judo from Karl Geis Sensei...who is a real pioneer of both Tomiki Ryu Aikido and Judo with a sucessful org......he is about 70 I think now...or older....

    during the 80s and beyond KM struggled to keep control of the system as his previous "child students" now became men and started to travel, study and form their own opinions about the art....some of us stayed in Keichu DESPITE Karl Marx and his antics....we tried to help him and we tried to keep the style going but in the end most left and as I said a few of us just expressed what we felt in our own ways.....so now Keichu is a small style at best with maybe.....maybe a 100 total active students but with many who have "taken it"....Id say about .....maybe 100 total black belts promoted and to my knowledge only about 10 or so to 6th Dan level...and one at 7th Dan....some of those also had ranking in other MAs....legitimate.....real ranks.....

    In terms of what this site may be looking for.....is Keichu a valid MA...yes Id say but with some concern over what do you call a "real MA"......that depends......was it effective...well it was as good as the person practiciing....did it lack real depth....yes it did from my current perspective....yes it was lacking....what made it work was the more senior students going out and learning a more "legitimate" or better grounded art then brining those PRINCIPLES back to KD and then trying to incorporate them....into KD...

    Agian the downfall of this was no coherent method for changes to be instituted, no central committee etc....only KM deciiding what was best and final say, it was his "art" so most of us were held "hostage" as either do it my way or leave"....agian many left....with threats issued etc.....KM acted like a nutcase often and still does...IMO.....he is near 70 now.....

    Id say to sum this up, Keichu was an art iwth much mroe potential than we see...it could have been great...but it was hamstrung by its founder...and held back by his own lack of understanding of people the need for healthy interaction and for change based on sound princiiples versus what wins a trophy....

    I will not go into personal issues with Karl Marx as I have many...but my issue with him was he squandered such potential....he never truly "got it" in an art he himself "founded"......the story of Keichu is interesting....indeed but its also a tragedy of sorts....one of potential that was lost....even though some good was realized.....

    I still respect KM for what he attempted but I pity him for not achieving his true potential, I hold him accountable for lying to us, to kids and adults who trusted him and I hold him accountable for misleading folks at times but he is also human......

    I guess another lesson is to not become "drunkened" but rank, by ego and to just enjoy your martial art...to study it, to embrace it and to find what fits.....

    I really wish Karl Marx would have just told the truth long ago....and leveled with us all, and instead embarked on building a true MA based on growth ....and mutual cooperation etc...all dirct principles of Kano.....

    As for throw downs, video...etc.......well thats another issue.....I am just addessing the real history and perspective as "I know it to be true".....
  4. Shiseiryu1 is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/07/2008 5:58pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Shisei Ryu Aikibudo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    JM please contact me via my emial, Id like to talk with you

    GWD
  5. Judah Maccabee is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/07/2008 10:14pm

    supporting memberhall of fameBullshido Newbie
     Style: Krav / (Kick)Boxing / BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Shiseiryu1
    JM please contact me via my emial, Id like to talk with you

    GWD
    I don't see an email address. Please email me at:

    a s h e a t e r (at) h o t m a i l (dot) c o m

    No spaces in the email, just to avoid spammage. Put "Keichu" in the subject line.

    - Steve
  6. Shiseiryu1 is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/08/2008 1:07pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Shisei Ryu Aikibudo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You have mail, thanks for your time

    GWD
  7. TM is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/11/2008 12:13pm


     Style: Ha Say Fu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm bumping this so something else will be on the start page other than the ignorant shiite that's there now. Thank you for understanding.
  8. Top5MBA is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/30/2009 3:37pm

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     Style: Wrestling

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    "11. Marx has said that one of his students, Jeff Crothers, has won 14 world championships in every division he’s entered. What tournaments were these in, and under whose authority?"

    I can answer this question. Jeff crothers competes in the United States Karate Alliance, formerly Trias' United State Karate Association before his death. Jeff started training at the age of 5 and is around 30 years old today. He has won USKA national and world championships in the arenas of kata, kobudo (weapons form), and point kumite (sparring). Below are some videos of him in recent action:

    YouTube - Jeff Crothers USKA Calf. State Kata Champ Mens Blackbelt

    YouTube - Adrian Galvan Vs Jeff Crothers 2009 USKA Nationals Grand Champion Kumite Final Match
  9. Phrost is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/30/2009 3:39pm

    Business Class Supporting Memberstaff
     Guy Who Pays the Bills and Gets the Death Threats Style: MMA (Retired)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Thanks for the info.
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