The Great god debate! pick your side and tell us why!

**Goldenmane** · Posted On: 11/12/2007 9:01pm

Regarding the question of "what was there before the big bang?":

This is, essentially, a nonsense question in that time is part of the fabric of the universe. It's just another dimension, so asking that question is analogous to asking, "What's West of
West?" or "What's above Up?"...

Time, like the other dimensions, didn't exist before the Universe.

It's the same as the misconception that the Big Bang occurred somewhere, like in the centre of the Universe. If you start with a singularity, as in the standard model of the Big Bang, then that singularity is by definition everywhere. The dimensions that are a part of the Universe don't extend outside of it. Attempting to apply concepts like location and time exterior to that which defines them is nonsense.

There are a number of interesting theories dealing with this stuff, though most of them are largely based on weird mathematical models and attempting to prove them in terms of falsifiable predictions is proving to be... well, interesting and amusing from my perspective, interesting and frustrating from the perspective of those doing the work.

Hell, there's even at least one guy who's come up with a model that does away with the Big Bang Inflationary Model entirely, by the name of Christiano Germani.

I'm looking forward to seeing what comes out of the research at the Large Hadron Collider. Should be very interesting... If Cthulhu doesn't spontaneously form inside it. Hell, that would be interesting.

(a cookie to anyone who can pick the rather obscure reference... it has to do with a Hawking lecture in the 70s).

**kracker** · Posted On: 11/12/2007 9:02pm

On topic: I'm WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY too stupid to understand how evolution actually works, but how does that in any way prove there's no God? Couldn't evolution be the how and God the why? Why do mainline theists find evolution so threatning? I don't understand it? I believe in God and if they ever indisputably proved evolution so much that even mainline Christians admitted it was true, it wouldn't affect my faith one iota. Even in my athiest days I never nuthugged evolution because even when I didn't want to believe in God, I didn't see how evolution advanced atheism in any way.

**Goldenmane** · Posted On: 11/12/2007 9:15pm

kracker:

Two points here;

1) Every debate on the subject of "god"s existence seems to revolve on two points, the Big Bang and Evolution... and yes, you bring up the point that they aren't necessarily reliant upon each other. Or even distinctly related, aside from both being fields of the big bad science.

2) Evolution does not posit or require the existence of supernatural deities, and provides a very simple explanation for the development of life without resorting to "God did it". This is why the fundies hate it.

In a way, it's all part of a fabric. And the fundies don't want to wear that shroud.

**Virus** · Posted On: 11/12/2007 9:52pm

Evolution doesn't "prove god doesn't exist" just as it doesn't "prove zeus don't exist". As Goldenmane said, it's a model that explains how the complexity and diversity of life on earth developed. It's a very robust model supported by large amounts of evidence. No reliable study has yet to come to a conclusion that is incompatible with the model of evolution.

You can posit that evolution was a process designed by God but that is completely unnecessary and superfluous assertion. The evolutionary model works without gods. You don't need to invoke the idea of intelligent creators to explain any of it.

When you bring gods into the picture you only end up with a more complex model. Evolution by itself is a simpler model that evolution plus a hyper intelligent entity, especially when there isn't a shred of evidence at all that this entity actually exists.

All in all, little has changed. There was no evidence for the existence of god before the ToE, and there's still no evidence afterwards.

**Emevas** · Posted On: 11/12/2007 9:55pm

**cuatro76** · Posted On: 11/12/2007 10:35pm

And AIDS came from monkeys. Therefore AIDS evolved from the Bible by proxy.

**cuatro76** · Posted On: 11/12/2007 10:37pm

Therefore Magic Johnson is a prophet.

Aw jeez, I'm going to catch flack from that aren't I.

**MacWombat** · Posted On: 11/13/2007 8:30am

Originally Posted by kracker

On topic: I'm WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY too stupid to understand how evolution actually works, but how does that in any way prove there's no God? Couldn't evolution be the how and God the why? Why do mainline theists find evolution so threatning? I don't understand it? I believe in God and if they ever indisputably proved evolution so much that even mainline Christians admitted it was true, it wouldn't affect my faith one iota. Even in my athiest days I never nuthugged evolution because even when I didn't want to believe in God, I didn't see how evolution advanced atheism in any way.

Uhh, it doesn't. Most Catolics I know believe in evolution. Fundies don't because it contradicts the Bible. That doesn't change the fact that many people believe in ID and must (or perhaps not) be argued against.