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  1. Coach Josh is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/02/2007 11:57am

    Business Class Supporting Member
     Gladiators Academy Lafayette, LA Style: Judo, MMA, White Trash JJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    BTW Hokkaido is wonder I am jealous. You will be freezing your ass off here soon. I hope to be in Japan this summer. Hope being the key word.
    Judo is only gentle for the guy on top.
  2. FourT6and2 is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/02/2007 7:25pm


     Style: Jujutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by jkartigue
    BTW Hokkaido is wonder I am jealous. You will be freezing your ass off here soon. I hope to be in Japan this summer. Hope being the key word.


    Quote Originally Posted by jkartigue
    Muscle grabs and pressure point style moves are the things that you described which we relate to self defense. "Illegal" moves or holds that you vaguely talk about again fall into what I say is self defense style moves. When they tell you to not place your hand directly on the wind pipe its for a reason. That reason again is SAFETY. While we all respect and understand the validity of them we don't have to use them to train.
    Quote Originally Posted by jkartigue

    Because of the vagueness of you descriptions is what led me to believe in what I said. If you would have asked "Why can't I grab and hold the belt?" Then I could have given you a better answer. The answer is that holding the belt is a defensive act. This slows down the action and is usually used to keep you from getting thrown. Its not illegal its just the sign of a desperate man. In competition your allowed 3-5 secs for any grip that is not standard kumikata. If you do not throw in that time you will be given a penalty. Hence the term illegal. If you grab it then execute a throw you are fine. But since you are new to Judo they want you to learn the basics and proper Judo.

    Again you are in another country with different customs and levels of acceptance. Your are new to a sport with different rules. If someone new came to your job and was doing stuff wrong you would correct them and show them the proper way to do it. This is what they are doing. If you agree with it or not it doesn't matter. You are in their house you do it their way. The Japanese are a quirky people get use to it.

    Don't give tell us that other jujutsu practice everything at full speed because that is highly unlikely. Since 98% of Judo techniques are done at full speed and the reason they can be done that way is because when you learn how to properly fall and tap the chance of injury is very low.

    Now you come on here and complain about a sport that many of us enjoy and train with on a daily basis. Some of us have trained for years and in Japan. We have seen guys like you all the time. You are the question guy. "Why can't I do this? Why do I have to do it like that? What if I do this?"

    When told not to do it that way because of A, B, and C the first word out of ya'll mouths are "but". There is no buts be lucky someone took the time to say A B & C ad not to STFU and do it like I said. Sometimes its best to yield to people with more experience. Its not that your wrong and we are right its just that we have seen all the other ways too. The way we teach is the best way to learn it.

    When you get higher up in level and skill then you can start to break the rules. First though learn the rules.


    Yes, Hokkaido is a pretty amazing area; lots of great outdoor sights. The food in my town is amazing because it's right on the sea so the food is literally out of the water and on to your plate. It's already starting to get extremely cold here, the winter is going to be...an adventure.

    I appreciate your input. Although you're making an assumption about me bing the "but..." guy. When I'm told to do something a certain way, I don't question it. I do it.

    I do like to understand the "why and how" of what I'm doing, though. But, there is a time and place for that.

    I generally keep my mouth shut during practice and do as I'm told.

    I can be more specific if you want.

    During my first few weeks, I was corrected about a few things:

    No touching any part of the head. I wasn't "shoving my hands in people's faces or cranking on their head/neck." I placed an open palm on the back of someone's head in a clinch and/or during newaza. It might have been during a choke hold...maybe a rear-naked choke.

    I also placed an open palm on someone's forehead because they bent their head down to pin their chin to their chest in order to prevent from being choked out.

    I applied a choke which involves reaching, from the front, behind my opponent's neck, clasping hands, and carving on either side of the neck with the ulna bone in each of my forearms. At first they said this was illegal, but after thinking about it they were unsure and said it might be ok to do. I haven't done it since just to be on the safe side.

    I was told applying shoulder locks, like a "Kimura" were illegal, but I've had it done to me a few times during newaza...

    In a clinch, reaching behind opponent’s shoulder or neck is illegal, regardless if you are grabbing the gi or body.

    If when being thrown, or attempting to be thrown, you prevent the throw (let's say a hip or shoulder throw) by placing an open hand on the thrower's lower back, near the sacrum, to prevent the thrower from inserting his hip...that's illegal.

    Same thing goes for immediately putting on a choke (a safe, legal choke) when opponent turns his back to you to throw.

    Applying pressure to the inside muscle of the thigh when trying to pass opponents guard is legal, but similar tactics in every other situation are not. For example, if your opponent is lying, face down, on the mat during newaza to prevent from being turned over and pinned or submitted, you basically can't do anything besides try to pick him up and turn him over.

    I'm still not sure if choking somebody with the legs is ok or not. I did it once during newaza in conjunction with an armbar. I was in the guard position and opponent was on his knees. There didn't seem to be any objections but it sort of contradicts some other rules I am now aware of.

    You are allowed to kick (they call it sweeping) the feet/ankles/shins? This just confuses me. Not really a kick, but it's with speed and force...

    I want to make it clear that my injury did not result from me breaking any rules or overly resisting my training partner. I work with the same few people at every practice and I know what they are capable of and they of me. It was a simple accident. My partner lost his balance and bent over/fell to his knees while attempting seoinage. He failed to get his hips in under my center of balance and as a result he brought the full weight of my body onto his back causing him to fall forward with me on top of him. I couldn't breakfall because he had pinned both my arms and I couldn't flip over the top of him to breakfall with me legs because he brought me straight down to the triangulation point between my legs.

    It was either take the impact with my face or with my shoulder. I chose my shoulder.
  3. Coach Josh is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/03/2007 10:24am

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     Gladiators Academy Lafayette, LA Style: Judo, MMA, White Trash JJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Sounds like something is getting lost in the translation. I can not say but all those things are fine in my club except for placing the hands on the face. Clasping behind the neck like a wrestlers tie up is fine but IDK how its considered illegal. Again its Japan and a rec club so they may be stricter on the rules or have a more user friendly set.
    Judo is only gentle for the guy on top.
  4. Mas is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/03/2007 6:41pm


     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by FourT6and2
    No touching any part of the head. I wasn't "shoving my hands in people's faces or cranking on their head/neck." I placed an open palm on the back of someone's head in a clinch and/or during newaza. It might have been during a choke hold...maybe a rear-naked choke.

    I also placed an open palm on someone's forehead because they bent their head down to pin their chin to their chest in order to prevent from being choked out.
    On the subject of Hands on forehead: It was my understanding of the (at least Olympic) rules was that you could place the back of your hand and/or forearm on the forehead, palm and/or forearm is illegal. This is to limit danger to the spine.

    I applied a choke which involves reaching, from the front, behind my opponent's neck, clasping hands, and carving on either side of the neck with the ulna bone in each of my forearms. At first they said this was illegal, but after thinking about it they were unsure and said it might be ok to do. I haven't done it since just to be on the safe side.
    Maybe this technique? ~ 4:45
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZiWEcHtXOK0

    I think in this case perhaps it is an etiquette thing. Blood chokes vs. air chokes can be a touchy subject in some dojos. If I have the wrong one I apologize.

    I was told applying shoulder locks, like a "Kimura" were illegal, but I've had it done to me a few times during newaza...
    Oh man in the Judo community this is done ad nauseum. Is it legal or isn't it. Since it supposedly attacks the elbow it is legal under USJA USJF rules. However it really most often attacks the shoulder.

    For more:

    http://judoforum.com/index.php?showt...&hl=ude+garame

    They talk about sankaku garame (omoplata) and ude garame (kimura) from guard.

    In a clinch, reaching behind opponent’s shoulder or neck is illegal, regardless if you are grabbing the gi or body.
    That's silly, maybe something lost in translation?

    If when being thrown, or attempting to be thrown, you prevent the throw (let's say a hip or shoulder throw) by placing an open hand on the thrower's lower back, near the sacrum, to prevent the thrower from inserting his hip...that's illegal.
    This is up to interpretation of the rules. They may be seeing it as taking an excessively defensive posture.

    Same thing goes for immediately putting on a choke (a safe, legal choke) when opponent turns his back to you to throw.
    This could be to limit injuries. Attempting a choke while being thrown could hurt uke from not taking good ukemi while they are concentrating on the choke.

    Applying pressure to the inside muscle of the thigh when trying to pass opponents guard is legal, but similar tactics in every other situation are not. For example, if your opponent is lying, face down, on the mat during newaza to prevent from being turned over and pinned or submitted, you basically can't do anything besides try to pick him up and turn him over.
    I don't understand your meaning here. Specifically what did you attempt to do but were not allowed to.

    I'm still not sure if choking somebody with the legs is ok or not. I did it once during newaza in conjunction with an armbar. I was in the guard position and opponent was on his knees. There didn't seem to be any objections but it sort of contradicts some other rules I am now aware of.
    This is legal under all Judo rules I am aware of. However, if your opponent starts to stand up then you stand up as well. This limits injuries to the neck/spine of the person applying the choke/armbar.

    You are allowed to kick (they call it sweeping) the feet/ankles/shins? This just confuses me. Not really a kick, but it's with speed and force...
    Speed and force in sweeps in often necessary. It's the intent that matters, if there is technique intended then it's legal. Etiquette asks for sole of the foot however.

    I want to make it clear that my injury did not result from me breaking any rules or overly resisting my training partner. I work with the same few people at every practice and I know what they are capable of and they of me. It was a simple accident. My partner lost his balance and bent over/fell to his knees while attempting seoinage. He failed to get his hips in under my center of balance and as a result he brought the full weight of my body onto his back causing him to fall forward with me on top of him. I couldn't breakfall because he had pinned both my arms and I couldn't flip over the top of him to breakfall with me legs because he brought me straight down to the triangulation point between my legs.
    I'm sure that you can understand where a lot of the posters were coming from,

    It seems like the only legal things you can do in Judo are variations on some leg sweeps, hip/shoulder throws, trips, and just basically pushing your opponent around.
    and

    I mean, I could have just sat there and pounded this guy in the face.
    I usually don't bust out the "not in the spirit of Judo" face, but

    :waoya

  5. Lu Tze is offline

    BJJ might make you a better ground fighter, but Judo will make you a better dancer.

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    Posted On:
    11/03/2007 7:09pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    A sweep isn't a kick, it's a sweep... a forceful push or pull. Judoka tend to get pretty pissed off at people clumsily hacking at their legs, so I can understand their attitude towards you.

    You sound like a bit of a know it all to be honest mate, and a total mat spaz. Half the rules you cited 'breaking' don't even exist, they're probably just trying to get you to calm the **** down so you don't hurt yourself (too late), or someone else.
  6. FourT6and2 is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/04/2007 4:11am


     Style: Jujutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Lu Tze
    A sweep isn't a kick, it's a sweep... a forceful push or pull. Judoka tend to get pretty pissed off at people clumsily hacking at their legs, so I can understand their attitude towards you.

    You sound like a bit of a know it all to be honest mate, and a total mat spaz. Half the rules you cited 'breaking' don't even exist, they're probably just trying to get you to calm the **** down so you don't hurt yourself (too late), or someone else.
    I don't kick NOR sweep; haven't done it once in practice. So, I do not clumsily hack at their legs. I don't know where you got that impression. If anything, they do it, not me. In fact, I remember one time one of the instructors got kicked in the knee pretty bad and had to sit out of randori for a bit.

    I don't see how you can say I'm not calm enough on the mat. You've never seen me during practice and I doubt you can tell how energetic or calm or how much of a "spaz" I am over the internet.

    I'm nothing but polite and willing to learn on the mat. You're just upset because you think I'm speaking down on an art that you obviously care for and thus, you think I'm insulting you.

    I have yet to personally attack anybody here and the only thing that you and a few others have done was to cuss at me...

    "**** you," "You're a retard," "You're a know-it-all," "You're a mat spaz," "...calm the **** down..." "Go **** yourself," etc. etc.

    I think I'm being pretty calm, as it is. The people who are getting upset, angry, and ranting are the one's who aren't calm.


    Anyway, Mas:

    Thanks for the input.

    I don't think the choke in that video is what I was talking about (I might not have been looking at the right one?). But, yes I was talking about a blood choke.

    About the pressure to the thigh: When trying to pass a guard, can you place your knee or elbow on the inside of your oppents thigh and put some weight on it? It's pretty painful.

    If your oppenet is just lying there, on his stomach, so you can't roll him over to pin or submit, I'm still working on how to go about dealing with that. To me, that would seem like an overly defensive position and would put a hinder on the match, wouldn't it?

    And, I know that saying, "I could have sat there and pounded the guy," is not in the spirit of judo. And, I would never do such a thing. That quote is out of context. What I meant was that my only other option at that point would have been to hit the guy. I had both his legs and arms pinned and immobilized and his head was tucked so I couldn't get a choke. I was in control at that point but there was no way for me to submit him or pin him with a "legal" technique (at that point, he was just a rock...laying there, doing nothing). So, I let him up and we started again, on our feet.

    I should have said that to begin with, sorry. It just means I need to work on it more and learn something new.

    At this point, I'm done here. Obviously everybody just thinks I'm some know it all, spaztic, high-strung, retard who should go **** himself and nothing I say is going to change that. So, have fun people.
  7. Lu Tze is offline

    BJJ might make you a better ground fighter, but Judo will make you a better dancer.

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    Posted On:
    11/04/2007 7:16am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    What? Where have I or anyone else told you to go **** yourself you passive aggressive shitstain? Why would I be personally insulted at some crybaby... I'm just going by what you yourself have said.

    But whatever, maybe judo isn't for you. Go find an MMA club instead of trying unsuccessfully to beat on little old men and school kids in a recreational judo club, and then complaining when they aren't up for that. Twat.
    Last edited by Lu Tze; 11/04/2007 7:21am at .
  8. Blue Negation is offline

    Woke up in the mortuary

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    Posted On:
    11/04/2007 10:56am


     Style: Judo, Sub wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yeah, go find a MMA gym. If you come on here screaming

    OH MY GOD I WAS JUST BEING A PERFECT IDEAL STUDENT AND NO I WASN'T BREAKING ANY RULES AND THESE MMA FIGHTERS PUNCHED MY FACE IN (OH GOD THE PAIN) AND CALLED ME A DICKWAD THAT PICKS ON NEWBIES I DON'T GET IT THEY OBVIOUSLY DON'T APPRECIATE MY GREATER UNDERSTANDING OF THE TRUE NATURE AND POSSIBILITIES OF COMBAT

    then we'll know.
  9. Mas is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/04/2007 2:01pm


     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Alright, though everyone else has flamed you (I can understand why) I'll answer your questions at the very least.

    Quote Originally Posted by FourT6and2
    I don't think the choke in that video is what I was talking about (I might not have been looking at the right one?). But, yes I was talking about a blood choke.
    Then I don't know what choke you're talking about. Pics/Vids?

    About the pressure to the thigh: When trying to pass a guard, can you place your knee or elbow on the inside of your oppents thigh and put some weight on it? It's pretty painful.
    You can put pressure on the inside of the thigh, but frankly it is a bitch pass. Using force or pain to pass guard is in my opinion not the ideal. There are better, easier, more efficient ways to pass guard.

    If your oppenet is just lying there, on his stomach, so you can't roll him over to pin or submit, I'm still working on how to go about dealing with that. To me, that would seem like an overly defensive position and would put a hinder on the match, wouldn't it?
    You've gotta practice working from there. Regardless of my personal feelings on "turtling" someone who is more skilled on their feet will want things to happen on their feet, and it's perfectly fine in the rules to do it. In competition they'll just stand you back up which is a strategic move for some people.

    And, I know that saying, "I could have sat there and pounded the guy," is not in the spirit of judo. And, I would never do such a thing. That quote is out of context. What I meant was that my only other option at that point would have been to hit the guy. I had both his legs and arms pinned and immobilized and his head was tucked so I couldn't get a choke. I was in control at that point but there was no way for me to submit him or pin him with a "legal" technique (at that point, he was just a rock...laying there, doing nothing). So, I let him up and we started again, on our feet.
    Yeah well you can't hit him, I don't know why the thought would cross into your mind. That would be like playing football, not getting past a linebacker and then saying "oh man it's a good thing I didn't have my spear!"

    If you're not happy with this Judo school, go to a University and try it there.

    ...nothing I say is going to change that.
    Your tone from the beginning of the thread brought this on. How did you not expect it?

  10. TheMightyMcClaw is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/06/2007 5:58pm

    supporting member
     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    A lot of the things your talking about (unorthodox grips, sleeve chokes, guillotine chokes, standing chokes, grabbing the head) are legal in BJJ but not in Judo. I'm not entirely sure how popular BJJ is in Japan, but if you can find a BJJ or maybe a Shootfighting club, you might enjoy the more liberal rules. You would also end up with more chances to use ground skills.
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