Phoenix Eye and other theoretical strikes.

**Madgrenade** · Posted On: 10/29/2007 11:26am

I have been told to use palms on their hard bits and fists on their soft bits (so as not to risk breaking my knuckles). Is this useful?

**Tonuzaba** · Posted On: 10/29/2007 11:44am

Originally Posted by Madgrenade

I have been told to use palms on their hard bits and fists on their soft bits (so as not to risk breaking my knuckles). Is this useful?

There is a slight problem with this advice.

Your chance of deciding beforehand what type of their bits you are actually going to hit is not that great.
You might hit a different bit.

Just a thought...

**selfcritical** · Posted On: 10/29/2007 11:49am

Well generally, fists are less likely to hit hard bits while working the body. And pretty much garunteed to do so while hitting the head. Which is what I find people usually mean.

**Guizzy** · Posted On: 10/29/2007 12:00pm

Originally Posted by BackFistMonkey

Close Dale .

I was more referring to him signing off on techniques he has never used immediately after claiming his tiger claw strikes were useful .

Not to mention how he failed to realize that the phoenix eye is a type of closed fist strike .

Wow, whoever drew that phoenix eye has probably never hitting something/someone hard with one. The index knuckle lacks support from the thumb. The thumb should be right where it is on a closed fist.

My style as well rarely punches with flat fist and replaces with the Phoenix Eye. You don't punch at a hard guard with it, but you shouldn't punch at one with an unprotected closed fist either.

The Phoenix Eye is not exactly a good idea if you're going for a knockdown, but it's more painful than a 'plain' closed fist, and it causes cuts easily, especially if you twist.

**PirateJon** · Posted On: 10/29/2007 12:58pm

As opposed to "normal" punches that never cause cuts? and when are you hitting someone and *NOT* wanting to knock them down or out either?

I posted about this in #19 and Bas Rutten is MOST CERTAINLY NOT a Red Herring. He was very good at using open hand strikes for FIVE YEARS, very effective.. He had years of punching before doing Pancrase, that's why he prefers punching.
You wanna see if open hand strikes work? Train them for a year. Hell, train them for six months. Condition your palm strikes & chops(hand&wrist) against metal shot bags or kettlebells Cestari-style. YOU WILL BE EFFECTIVE.

You can make them work - and Bas did - but he only did so to fit under a specific ruleset. Watch his self defense vids sometime. I recall him using and recommending a closed fist most of the time.

My beef with the pheonix eye stuff is that it seems like a lot of work to learn to use something that maybe could get accomplished just as easily as a fist. It seems like needless exoticism to me.

Me too. amusingly if you land a punch with the knuckle extended it'll just get pushed back into a normal fist.

**Guizzy** · Posted On: 10/29/2007 1:34pm

Originally Posted by PirateJon

As opposed to "normal" punches that never cause cuts? and when are you hitting someone and *NOT* wanting to knock them down or out either?

Oh, normal punches certainly can cause cuts, just less often than a phoenix eye.

Now as to when you wouldn't want to knock someone down or out, I'm not too sure myself. I do know however that there are specific targets that are more vulnerable to phoenix eyes than to punches, though. Ribs are a pretty good example. Except for that, I'm not a big fan of it either, but it's what my teacher advocates, and it certainly works well enough for him and for some other students.

Originally Posted by PirateJon

Me too. amusingly if you land a punch with the knuckle extended it'll just get pushed back into a normal fist.

Which is why the drawing was wrong; the knuckle should be supported by the thumb. With the thumb in the right place, there's no place for the knuckle to be pushed back to.

**Craigypooh** · Posted On: 10/29/2007 2:47pm

Originally Posted by Guizzy

Which is why the drawing was wrong; the knuckle should be supported by the thumb. With the thumb in the right place, there's no place for the knuckle to be pushed back to.

Do you not risk dislocating the thumb that way? It seems to me that it's a bit like making a fist with the thumb inside the fingers.

**Guizzy** · Posted On: 10/29/2007 3:01pm

Originally Posted by Craigypooh

Do you not risk dislocating the thumb that way? It seems to me that it's a bit like making a fist with the thumb inside the fingers.

Photographic evidence to the contrary shall be be provided in a few hours.

**Guizzy** · Posted On: 10/29/2007 5:31pm

Ask and ye shall recieve

Now, how one could dislocate his thumb that way is beyond me.

**BackFistMonkey** · Posted On: 10/29/2007 5:53pm

Originally Posted by Guizzy

Ask and ye shall recieve

Now, how one could dislocate his thumb that way is beyond me.

If there is a way to **** it up , the average person will proceed to do so with great vigor . Which wouldn't be so bad if everyone wasn't occasionally "average" .

As for the faulty pic ... I really didn't look very hard , just wanted to get the general idea out there . Thank you for the pics .

I will now began teaching Phoenix Eye Kung Fu .