Studying Judo in Japan

**FourT6and2** · Posted On: 10/30/2007 12:12am

So, I'm here in Japan and I have been searching for a good art to study (I'm really interested in the koryu, but can't find any in my area). I started training at the local Judo dojo, instead.

I have never studied Judo before, only had experience in a hybrid art and two other Japanese arts. At first, most of them were very cautious of me because of my background in those other arts. I find that I have a very difficult time getting them off their feet during randori by using any type of throw. They are just much better than I in that department. I think part of the reason is that most of the things I know how to do effectively are illegal in Judo and I get yelled at when I do them (I didn't know any of the rules at first). Most, if not all, joint locks are illegal, you can't touch the head at all, no grabbing limbs - only the gi, no striking, no atemi, it's really annoying. It seems like the only legal things you can do in Judo are variations on some leg sweeps, hip/shoulder throws, trips, and just basically pushing your opponent around.

But, I find that I excel at ground work. But, again, most of the stuff I know how to do is illegal. I've tapped my partner out a few times using some chokes and I got an armbar/choke on one time (don't know the name of the technique...basically from a guard position, trapping opponents arm in between your legs while getting a figure-four type of leg positioning around their neck and applying a choke with legs while also applying an arm bar).

I find that once I get mount on my oppent I'm at a loss of what to do next. I basically just sit there whith nothing to do. Once, I even managed to trap my oppents arms and legs while sitting there, in mount. But, the match kept going because I somehow didn't manage to get ippon? I mean, I could have just sat there and pounded this guy in the face.

I like Judo, but I'm not sure where to go from here.

I also got injured a few weeks ago and have been on a hiatus since.

My partner got a little over-zealeous and tried to seoinage me in randori but he didn't get his center of gravity in the right spot and instead of lifting me for the throw, he just bent over and lost his balance with the weight of me on his back. We both went down and because my arms were trapped and I couldn't breakfall from that position, my shoulder slammed into the ground.

Basically, AC joint dislocation and numerous bone contusions on my clavicle, humerous, and scapula.

I'm trying to keep an open mind about Judo and I don't act like an ass in practice. I buckle down and try to learn.

But, because of my studies in other arts, it has sort of jaded me to what goes on in Judo.

Any suggestions?

**leere_form** · Posted On: 10/30/2007 3:53am

learn the rules, play the game, have fun with it.

give this a read: http://members.lycos.co.uk/fight/judo/judo.html

it attempts to explain why judo has some "silly" rules nowadays, and the historian opines that bjj/gjj escaped those changes and is closer to the "original" judo.

as for being in the mount (tate-shiho-gatame), learn some armbars and collar chokes from there. if you're training for mma or self-defense, you might want to learn those anyway, because in the course of pounding someone in the face.. they might give you one. :)

it sounds like you did a triangle armbar (sangaku-gatame), also, which is a great technique and perfectly legal in judo.

if you're strong on the ground, you will be at a disadvantage in judo competition, but you can still play to your strengths if you want to win matches. you might consider shifting your focus from "ippon" throws to "easier" throws which get you a lower score and put you in a good position for groundwork. you will, of course, have to 1. take them down successfully and 2. aggressively pursue a pin, choke, or armlock, but people do win judo matches this way, and groundwork was preserved in judo so people could do exactly that.

of course, if you're just in need of a reminder why judo is cool, watch this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=[yt]CUne9Xg55og

**BomberH** · Posted On: 10/30/2007 11:54am

Originally Posted by FourT6and2

Most, if not all, joint locks are illegal, you can't touch the head at all, no grabbing limbs - only the gi, no striking, no atemi, it's really annoying. It seems like the only legal things you can do in Judo are variations on some leg sweeps, hip/shoulder throws, trips, and just basically pushing your opponent around.

In Judo sparring you can throw your opponent with anyone of the 67 legitimate Kodokan throws or any other throw or take down you care to try. You can also arm bar or choke your opponent. Judo also has leg locks they just can't be used in free sparring. Judo also has some limited atemi waza usually learned through its Kata.

So basically your complaint is that Judo sparring has no striking.

All I can say is **** off you are a retard.

Go and take a boxing class and complain throws are not allowed.

Originally Posted by FourT6and2

But, I find that I excel at ground work. But, again, most of the stuff I know how to do is illegal........... I mean, I could have just sat there and pounded this guy in the face.

:knob:

Originally Posted by FourT6and2

I find that once I get mount on my oppent I'm at a loss of what to do next. I basically just sit there whith nothing to do.

As I thought you know **** all about grappling. Go and post on a Ninja or Kungfu forum.

**FourT6and2** · Posted On: 10/31/2007 3:28am

Originally Posted by BomberH

In Judo sparring you can throw your opponent with anyone of the 67 legitimate Kodokan throws or any other throw or take down you care to try. You can also arm bar or choke your opponent. Judo also has leg locks they just can't be used in free sparring. Judo also has some limited atemi waza usually learned through its Kata.

So basically your complaint is that Judo sparring has no striking.

All I can say is **** off you are a retard.

Go and take a boxing class and complain throws are not allowed.

:knob:

As I thought you know **** all about grappling. Go and post on a Ninja or Kungfu forum.

Wow. Way to over react.

You misunderstood my tone. Why did you just instantly jump to cussing at me and calling me a retard?

I have no interest in discussing anything with you. Go away.

**FourT6and2** · Posted On: 10/31/2007 3:49am

Originally Posted by leere_form

learn the rules, play the game, have fun with it.

give this a read: http://members.lycos.co.uk/fight/judo/judo.html

it attempts to explain why judo has some "silly" rules nowadays, and the historian opines that bjj/gjj escaped those changes and is closer to the "original" judo.

as for being in the mount (tate-shiho-gatame), learn some armbars and collar chokes from there. if you're training for mma or self-defense, you might want to learn those anyway, because in the course of pounding someone in the face.. they might give you one. :)

it sounds like you did a triangle armbar (sangaku-gatame), also, which is a great technique and perfectly legal in judo.

if you're strong on the ground, you will be at a disadvantage in judo competition, but you can still play to your strengths if you want to win matches. you might consider shifting your focus from "ippon" throws to "easier" throws which get you a lower score and put you in a good position for groundwork. you will, of course, have to 1. take them down successfully and 2. aggressively pursue a pin, choke, or armlock, but people do win judo matches this way, and groundwork was preserved in judo so people could do exactly that.

of course, if you're just in need of a reminder why judo is cool, watch this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=[yt]CUne9Xg55og

Thanks for the info.

I'm not training for MMA, nor have I trained in anything similar to MMA.

I do know the rules now, I was just giving a history of what it was like when I first started training in Judo.

As for mount...I know armbars and chokes. But, I'm not allowed to apply armbars during randori; they don't want any of the students to get injured because they are still in Junior and Senior High.

Yeah, I learned that being strong on the ground is a disadvantage because you need to actually GET your oppent on the ground first. That's the hard part!

I don't really focus on the ippon awarding throws. I just innitiate any throw that happens to come up (usually unsuccesfully).

As for atemi, striking, or kata...I have seen none of them yet. No kata have been taught or demonstrated.

Also, a lot of the chokes I know how to do are illegal. I guess you can't grab your own limbs while applying a choke (only the gi)? You can't choke from in front of uke with his body in a bent-over postion (under your armpit)? You can't touch uke's head or place your hand on his head while choking? You obviously can't cross-face. You can't apply upward or downward pressure against the neck? You can't grab, twist, or otherwise manipulate tendons or muscles (I know a few ways of grabbing or sheering muscle with the Ulna bone in the forearm). I could go on and on. But, I'm sure you get the idea.

It's just really difficult because all the things I've been previously trained to do are now out the window.

I'm just used to other forms of body manipulation; mostly tendon/muscle/joint sheering and torsional sriking. My background is in striking, grappling/throwing, and a little bit of ground fighting. I've never trained in MMA or the like...just some traditional Japanese systems and a gendai system.

Judo is forcing me to unlearn all of that stuff and I'm not sure I want to. Judo is fun, but I don't think it's for me.

I'm gonna stick it out for the rest of the time I'm in Japan and continure to train with an open mind, though.

To any of you hot-heads like the previous poster, I'm not bashing Judo. So, go annoy someone else.

**golsa** · Posted On: 10/31/2007 3:51am

What did you study before that made them suspicious?

**FourT6and2** · Posted On: 10/31/2007 4:01am

Originally Posted by golsa

What did you study before that made them suspicious?

I have a small background in some older forms of Japanese Jujutsu and a modern art that has some similarities to what Taika Oyata (Ryute Renmei) does. I studied Aikido for some time, but that wasn't what they were worried about.

They were more cautious of my Jujutsu background and more weary of some of the things I shared about the modern art I study.

But, since most of that stuff is illegal in Judo, they have loosend up a bit. I'm sure they were just sizing me up before training got too serious.

**Jadonblade** · Posted On: 10/31/2007 6:38am

Here is a vid to give you hope, the man in the white belt is BJ Penn and he likes going to the ground and submitting them like you do. His gone to a judo competition.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUNgJPsUb1A

**leere_form** · Posted On: 10/31/2007 7:01am

Originally Posted by FourT6and2

Thanks for the info.

I'm not training for MMA, nor have I trained in anything similar to MMA.

I do know the rules now, I was just giving a history of what it was like when I first started training in Judo.

As for mount...I know armbars and chokes. But, I'm not allowed to apply armbars during randori; they don't want any of the students to get injured because they are still in Junior and Senior High.

Yeah, I learned that being strong on the ground is a disadvantage because you need to actually GET your oppent on the ground first. That's the hard part!

I don't really focus on the ippon awarding throws. I just innitiate any throw that happens to come up (usually unsuccesfully).

As for atemi, striking, or kata...I have seen none of them yet. No kata have been taught or demonstrated.

Also, a lot of the chokes I know how to do are illegal. I guess you can't grab your own limbs while applying a choke (only the gi)? You can't choke from in front of uke with his body in a bent-over postion (under your armpit)? You can't touch uke's head or place your hand on his head while choking? You obviously can't cross-face. You can't apply upward or downward pressure against the neck? You can't grab, twist, or otherwise manipulate tendons or muscles (I know a few ways of grabbing or sheering muscle with the Ulna bone in the forearm). I could go on and on. But, I'm sure you get the idea.

It's just really difficult because all the things I've been previously trained to do are now out the window.

I'm just used to other forms of body manipulation; mostly tendon/muscle/joint sheering and torsional sriking. My background is in striking, grappling/throwing, and a little bit of ground fighting. I've never trained in MMA or the like...just some traditional Japanese systems and a gendai system.

Judo is forcing me to unlearn all of that stuff and I'm not sure I want to. Judo is fun, but I don't think it's for me.

I'm gonna stick it out for the rest of the time I'm in Japan and continure to train with an open mind, though.

To any of you hot-heads like the previous poster, I'm not bashing Judo. So, go annoy someone else.

sounds like you need to get into NHB/MMA. :) that crowd usually doesn't say "you can't do that" unless it involves breaking fingers or eye-gouging.

**Teh El Macho** · Posted On: 10/31/2007 10:49am

Originally Posted by FourT6and2

As for mount...I know armbars and chokes. But, I'm not allowed to apply armbars during randori; they don't want any of the students to get injured because they are still in Junior and Senior High.

Some schools have regulations against certain submissions if you are 14 or younger (could be 14, could be 12, depending on the school.) How old are you?