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  1. #31
    Keeping you safe from Mongolians

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    Last edited by Cuchulain; 10/26/2007 6:11pm at .

  2. #32
    Keeping you safe from Mongolians

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Had some issues embedding but it should work now.

  3. #33
    Jack Rusher's Avatar
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Taiji really is mainly a funny system for training throws. I've posted this before, but here are some examples of Chen style taiji push hands. It's just a demo filmed for a Chinese TV documentary, but it should give some flavor:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAicu-IPjMw

    Judo is a better comparison than wrestling for the style of the throws. I've met some real live taiji players who can do this stuff to resisting opponents. One of Cartmell's bagua teachers (Luo De-Xiu) has amazing throwing skills, even relative to grapplers from styles that are well respected on this forum.
    “Most people do not do, but take refuge in theory and talk, thinking that they will become good in this way” -- Aristotle, Nicomachean Ethics, II.4

  4. #34

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Taiji could be 80% wrestling and still it won't make Taiji a grappling art. Why? Because the single proponent that is making all of the other proponents cream themselves had to go train BJJ before making these "realizations". It took training in a pure grappling artform to trace back and improve Taiji, not the other way around. That would be like saying Kempo is a GREAT striking art...but I had to go train Muay Thai for 6 years to see what worked in Kempo. (Hypothetical proposition, before all of the Kempo practicioners jump me in the hallway.)

    I've practiced some Taiji (before asking, I don't remember what style, I hated it, I was in Choy Li Fut at the time and was on my way out of that as well because CMA and I do not get along), and push hands seemed about as important as Wing Chun's sticky hands. Meaning, almost not at all. Peng, Lu and An to your hearts content, but spening more than a few minutes on it is worthless as, just like sticky hands, the range you practice in is a transitional range, ie. what most call trapping range. It's tantamount to spending hours doing lunge steps from kicking to punching range. Sure, it will help you lunge faster, but you spend very little time in a fight lunging from one range to the next. It's all transitional.

    As for the movements of Taiji being throws more than punches, the earlier statement that those who comment against Taiji must not know much about it seems to ring true even for those proponents who claim to know and support Taiji. Why do I say this? Because most know that the reason many movements in Taiji are open hand is because they are meant for weapon play, not for unarmed usage or wrestling. Dragon Steals Pearl, Snake Darts Tongue, High Pat Horse, etc. are modified from the straight sword forms involving lunges and low stances, while most of the "chopping" strikes and wide swinging movements were taken from the Dao/Dar-Dao or broadsword forms. That much, at least, I remember from my CMA period and from various book sources I've read over the years. It is one of the many reasons I don't think Taiji is particularly useful for me, since I don't use weapons.

    Regardless, if it's good for Cartmell, bully for him. I just don't think I need to "rediscover" Taiji as a form of grappling. BJJ, Judo and Wrestling are all perfectly alright and there is no need to rediscover anything.

  5. #35
    Jack Rusher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Necroth
    I've practiced some Taiji [...] I hated it [...] because CMA and I do not get along [... more words to that effect ...]
    Cool. What does this have to do with the thread?
    “Most people do not do, but take refuge in theory and talk, thinking that they will become good in this way” -- Aristotle, Nicomachean Ethics, II.4

  6. #36
    It is Fake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Necroth

    As for the movements of Taiji being throws more than punches, the earlier statement that those who comment against Taiji must not know much about it seems to ring true even for those proponents who claim to know and support Taiji. Why do I say this? Because most know that the reason many movements in Taiji are open hand is because they are meant for weapon play, not for unarmed usage or wrestling. Dragon Steals Pearl, Snake Darts Tongue, High Pat Horse, etc. are modified from the straight sword forms involving lunges and low stances, while most of the "chopping" strikes and wide swinging movements were taken from the Dao/Dar-Dao or broadsword forms. That much, at least, I remember from my CMA period and from various book sources I've read over the years. It is one of the many reasons I don't think Taiji is particularly useful for me, since I don't use weapons.
    Hahaha no. Dude while I agree with the BJJ part this is drivel.



    Because the single proponent that is making all of the other proponents cream themselves had to go train BJJ before making these "realizations".[.quote]I can understand why you hate CMA whoever told you the above, no matter how good, was full of bullshido.
    This is the part I agree with. The rest not so much. The weapon based art is a cop out for people who can't apply Tai Chi. Not you in particular but, I've heard this from a few teachers who had "found"(modified) their own style of Tai Chi.

    What style of Tai Chi did you do? Seriously.
    Last edited by It is Fake; 10/27/2007 7:41am at .

  7. #37
    D Dempsey's Avatar
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Necroth
    Regardless, if it's good for Cartmell, bully for him. I just don't think I need to "rediscover" Taiji as a form of grappling. BJJ, Judo and Wrestling are all perfectly alright and there is no need to rediscover anything.
    I thought I should mention here that Tim doesn't really do CMA anymore. He will teach people who want to learn via private lessons, but he does not actively practice or encourage people to train in CMA. All his classes are based around BJJ and MMA.

  8. #38
    Jack Rusher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by D Dempsey
    I thought I should mention here that Tim doesn't really do CMA anymore. He will teach people who want to learn via private lessons, but he does not actively practice or encourage people to train in CMA. All his classes are based around BJJ and MMA.
    You've trained with the guy, so maybe you can tell me: where does everything in his classes that isn't BJJ come from? Like, for instance, all of his standup...
    “Most people do not do, but take refuge in theory and talk, thinking that they will become good in this way” -- Aristotle, Nicomachean Ethics, II.4

  9. #39
    Cullion's Avatar
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by pauli
    80% of tai chi is really bad wrestling.
    How would you know ?
    !!RENT SPACE HERE FOR 10 VBUCKS PER LINE PER MONTH!!

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  10. #40
    D Dempsey's Avatar
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Most of it is regular MMA. I'm sure CMA has a huge influence on it since he trained in it so long but what he teaches isn't really unique. Other than that I don't really know. I didn't train with him at his main school in California so I can't really say what he teaches in his regular class. There was/is a satellite school in Las Cruces NM that I trained at, and he would come out few months and teach classes.

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