80% of Taichi is Wrestling

**selfcritical** · Posted On: 10/26/2007 3:37pm

Huh. No post from Cullion yet. Maybe because it's not in the CMA forum?

**selfcritical** · Posted On: 10/26/2007 3:44pm

Originally Posted by hl1978

Said by Tim Cartmell, Internal Martial Arts instructor, Author of passing the guard, BJJ blackbelt, s ilver medalist in the World Championships of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu at black belt level, won Pan-American Brazilian Jiu Jitsu tournament twice as well as winning the prestigious Copa Pacifica de Jiu Jitsu seven times.

From a seminar review of his:

"Taijiquan is a grappling art. Tim's research has shown him that 80% of Taiji is wrestling. Push hands was a sort of kumi kata in Taiji's practice, from which a wide variety of throwing techniques would flow. Over time, he believes that as skilled practitioners understood the application of throwing techniques amongst one another, that push hands essentially evolved into the somewhat benign pushing that we see today. It was a kind of "I know you got me on that one" type understanding, that avoided constantly being spiralled into the ground by your training partner. He believes that style of training eventually became par for the course, and over time the majority of practitioners simply stopped practicing real grappling and throwing, leading to what we see the bulk of Taiji practice is today. "

http://www.shenwu.com/cgi-bin/discus...=/20/3110.html

I really want to check this guy out sometime. Everyone says he is the real deal, even here on bullshido. Of course most people don't do taichi in this way, but it does make sense that the root of tai chi was alog those lines.

The link is broken

**hl1978** · Posted On: 10/26/2007 3:49pm

Originally Posted by selfcritical

The link is broken

You are correct, I just checked their BBS and the entire BBS no longer works. Its a link on Tim Cartmells' schools discussion board. Perhaps it can't handle the traffic from bullshido?

**dwak** · Posted On: 10/26/2007 4:00pm

this is crap, good wrestling is more about developing your sense of balance and control over your weight and body, and you're opponents than it is about any individual moves/techniques. Its about learning to sense when you're in and out of position and when you're close to a good position. this can't be developed by any tai chi I've ever seen, and if cartmell can do it, its because he's built up those senses through hard live resistance, wrestling is not about techniques, it has to be learned by doing, and different people make different stuff work

**jkdbuck76** · Posted On: 10/26/2007 4:04pm

wrestling....

All fake like WWE ( fake = not really trying to kill each other and lots of compliance).

**Rivington** · Posted On: 10/26/2007 4:04pm

Originally Posted by dwak

this is crap, good wrestling is more about developing your sense of balance and control over your weight and body.

Yes. That's pretty much what taiji does — with everything from some of the wacky-seeming stances to the various push hands games (which are about pushing the hand with one's own lower body and keeping one's balance against another's push) — as well.

Originally Posted by dwak

this can't be developed by any tai chi I've ever seen

What types of taiji have you seen and how closely have you looked?

**D Dempsey** · Posted On: 10/26/2007 4:10pm

I've went to a series of Sun Style Taji that was taught by Tim Cartmell, and at the end of every day we wrestled for about an hour. That last part being absent from most places is why Taji blows.

**hl1978** · Posted On: 10/26/2007 4:13pm

Originally Posted by dwak

this is crap, good wrestling is more about developing your sense of balance and control over your weight and body, and you're opponents than it is about any individual moves/techniques. Its about learning to sense when you're in and out of position and when you're close to a good position. this can't be developed by any tai chi I've ever seen, and if cartmell can do it, its because he's built up those senses through hard live resistance, wrestling is not about techniques, it has to be learned by doing, and different people make different stuff work

Actually, I believe Cartmell attribues a fair amount of his success to his CMA training, and approaches grapping from using structure rather than leverage/kuzushi, at least thats what i got from a quick flipthrough of one of his books and a demo video segment.

http://communityjiujitsu.blogspot.co...-wu-style.html

When I came up on top I tried to use the combat posture and Tim was able to drive his knee through and triangle me anyways; I felt like I was not even there. I probably got tapped about 10 times. When Tim gets into position, he has an incredible base and driving force that we all attribute to his Bagua training. I am not kidding, it is weird pressure and I think everyone should get side controlled or mounted by him to feel it. His body triangle from the back was equally as uncomfortable.

**selfcritical** · Posted On: 10/26/2007 4:13pm

Originally Posted by dwak

this is crap, good wrestling is more about developing your sense of balance and control over your weight and body, and you're opponents than it is about any individual moves/techniques. Its about learning to sense when you're in and out of position and when you're close to a good position.

Push hands is an isolation excercise to develop those attributes alongside normal wrestling or Shuai pratice,