80% of Taichi is Wrestling

**hl1978** · Posted On: 10/26/2007 2:15pm

Said by Tim Cartmell, Internal Martial Arts instructor, Author of passing the guard, BJJ blackbelt, s ilver medalist in the World Championships of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu at black belt level, won Pan-American Brazilian Jiu Jitsu tournament twice as well as winning the prestigious Copa Pacifica de Jiu Jitsu seven times.

From a seminar review of his:

"Taijiquan is a grappling art. Tim's research has shown him that 80% of Taiji is wrestling. Push hands was a sort of kumi kata in Taiji's practice, from which a wide variety of throwing techniques would flow. Over time, he believes that as skilled practitioners understood the application of throwing techniques amongst one another, that push hands essentially evolved into the somewhat benign pushing that we see today. It was a kind of "I know you got me on that one" type understanding, that avoided constantly being spiralled into the ground by your training partner. He believes that style of training eventually became par for the course, and over time the majority of practitioners simply stopped practicing real grappling and throwing, leading to what we see the bulk of Taiji practice is today. "

http://www.shenwu.com/cgi-bin/discus...=/20/3110.html

I really want to check this guy out sometime. Everyone says he is the real deal, even here on bullshido. Of course most people don't do taichi in this way, but it does make sense that the root of tai chi was alog those lines.

**MaverickZ** · Posted On: 10/26/2007 2:22pm

"At the end of the session Tim opened it up for questions. Several folks asked specific questions about techniques from several Taiji styles. Tim showed how certain popular and well known moves from the forms are actually the entry to and follow through on several throws, several of which would be familiar to judoka, without a gi and a slightly different approach to "fitting in.""

**hl1978** · Posted On: 10/26/2007 2:25pm

Originally Posted by MaverickZ

"At the end of the session Tim opened it up for questions. Several folks asked specific questions about techniques from several Taiji styles. Tim showed how certain popular and well known moves from the forms are actually the entry to and follow through on several throws, several of which would be familiar to judoka, without a gi and a slightly different approach to "fitting in.""

Tends to lend support to there being grappling in standup kata. :P
Of course, I dont think most of the people who make that point train anything like the way Tim does, or can back it up like he can.

**Rivington** · Posted On: 10/26/2007 2:27pm

Yup. Chen is still crazy with the chin'na, even in forms. At least, I've yet to encounter a posture which, when we go over it, doesn't involve me ending up on the ground with my forearm wrapped around my own neck somehow in the first few demonstrations. (I'm my class's practice dummy for complex reasons.)

**cyril** · Posted On: 10/26/2007 2:28pm

Originally Posted by hl1978

Tends to lend support to there being grappling in standup kata. :P
Of course, I dont think most of the people who make that point train anything like the way Tim does, or can back it up like he can.

I think there must be a reason that Taijiquan is/was considered such a deadly matial art by the movie industry, and I think that awesome spiraling throws would definitely make me believe that it was badass. Maybe he's actually found something...

**pauli** · Posted On: 10/26/2007 2:38pm

80% of tai chi is really bad wrestling.

**Rivington** · Posted On: 10/26/2007 2:45pm

Originally Posted by cyril

Maybe he's actually found something...

I dunno if "found" is the right word. The stuff is there — it's not been lost. It's just not popular. Think of, perhaps, the relationship between BJJ and Judo: much of BJJ's groundfighting is in Judo, but various forces — such as Judo becoming more strictly a sport in the wake of the Second World War, led to more energy being spent on perfecting the throws than the groundwork. A separate evolution happened in Brazil.

Same with taiji — external forces from the Cultural Revolution to fat royalty to "New Age" thought changed the emphasis, but nothing vanished. Taiji isn't all that ancient; major figures like Chen Fake were active in the twentieth century and were photographed and recorded while playing taiji, taught publicly, competed, etc. We're only up to, I think, the twentieth generation of discipleship. (There may be a few 21ers out there.) Techniques don't fade that quickly. It's just that — foolishly IMO — too many people are only interested in taiji for the cultivational aspects. And that is foolish as the cultivational aspects don't work as well without an exercise of the martial aspects.

**Ke?poFist** · Posted On: 10/26/2007 2:58pm

Originally Posted by MaverickZ

"At the end of the session Tim opened it up for questions. Several folks asked specific questions about techniques from several Taiji styles. Tim showed how certain popular and well known moves from the forms are actually the entry to and follow through on several throws, several of which would be familiar to judoka, without a gi and a slightly different approach to "fitting in.""

Oh boy, here we go again...