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  1. dutch is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/01/2008 11:17am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Ninjitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Ninjoo,

    To your remark regarding Ninjitsu "History" the history is available worldwide via the internet.... I don't waste too much time to explain things regarding history, although sometimes history gets contradicted through "us". LOL

    To your question regarding training with Master Kim, No, I did not have the honour to train with or under him, nor under Christopher Hunter, I trained under various Teachers.....

    I have studied a bit of Wing Tsun Keun but it was only for a short time.

    Regards
    Dutch.
  2. Arcep is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/01/2008 3:43pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: None

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by dutch
    Well, well..... I personally trained under Stoffel van Vuuren, and to get back to one of the earlier replies regarding Ninjitsu authenticity here in South Africa......

    But first.... let's start in Japan, It was devided up into two provinces "IGA & KOGA" two rivalry clans, both despised each other, for what purpose I don't know. What happened to the "Respect all types of Martial Arts Forms"???? But now, to get back to Soke Van Vuuren....
    Quote Originally Posted by dutch
    Ninjoo,

    To your remark regarding Ninjitsu "History" the history is available worldwide via the internet.... I don't waste too much time to explain things regarding history, although sometimes history gets contradicted through "us". LOL
    Google and Wikipedia gave me this, this and this.

    Edit: And this.
  3. moli is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/01/2008 4:43pm


     Style: Muay Thai

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by dutch
    Well, well..... I personally trained under Stoffel van Vuuren, and to get back to one of the earlier replies regarding Ninjitsu authenticity here in South Africa......
    So can you please get back to the question of authenticity? Also, if "you" could, please try to "use" normal "punctuation".
  4. StormChild is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/02/2008 3:19am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: BJJ, SCA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    On the history of ninjitsu, especially koga...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C5%8Dga-ry%C5%AB
    and
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninjutsu
    and
    http://fujitaseiko.tripod.com/

    Koga Ryu is NOT a authentic martial art. No one has legitimate claim to be the Grand Master of this art.

    And Dutch, if you have PROOF of Mr van Vuuren's qualifications please post it. I know he has his 2nd Dan in Ninjitsu, but he jumped from 2nd dan to 10th dan in a few years... Please post any evidence you have.
  5. dutch is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/02/2008 6:00am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Ninjitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    To All concerned,

    Captain Ben Mangels opened up a Dojo in the Eastern Cape region, under Capt Ben Mangels, Shihan Barry Pictor Trained and was appointed by the Black Dragon Counsel Master Intructor of Region 9.

    When Shihan Barry Pictor anounced his retirement from active teaching/training, Soke Van Vuuren had the privelage to go abroad to further his studies, and yes it was when he had his 2nd degree in Koga Hai Lung Ryu Ninjitsu, and we all know the rest what followed.

    Hope this helps, but it goes deeper than that, e.g. When you have trained for a period of time in any martial arts form you have the opportunity to be graded by a grading panel, consisting of Master's and Sensei's...... In such the Art which you are grading for the requirements from the panel have to consist of Senior Instructors such as what I have mentioned, now we have a scenario where you prove to have the abillity of a higher grade e.g you are 1st Dan and your prowess prove to be that of a 3rd Dan, then you are tested to that grading, when and if the grading is successful you have achieved it through means of what you have displayed then I'm sure that person with the Authority of that panel to award the Student/Sensei/Master to that degree.

    Many styles in the MA have a required syllabus to complete and some take 2-3 years, some 10 years. Each system depending on the abillity of a student can even jump a level in a grading, If you have a Master / Sensei that is unable to teach what is neccessary to any student then the student will be "left behind" then also you will have to face the "music" to such an effect of being not worthy to teach at all.

    The Question regarding MOLI, about Authenticity is as follows, first yo got to prove beyond any reasonable doubt that Koga Hai Lung Ryu Ninjitsu does not exist, and if it does not exist, then the following Question I have to ask is: "What is all this mayhem regarding Stoffel's ranking...... Then the other Question, Master Kim? Who made him Master?

    Well, in any such a case through any lineage where the True Master of the Style has passed on without a successor, then it is left to the Black Dragon Panel to choose a Leader/Master etc.... in this case it to be Master A. Kim. We all know that what works and that what doesn't. We all have the abillity to become what we desire or what we want most. But there will be a few that will seek to prove that you are unworthy.

    We are seen by all, heard by all. When it comes to the crunch feared by all. So, What are you afraid of?

    I have had many questions regarding the true History of the Martial Arts, where did it come from, who made the first people Master's of their Art's? anything is questionable and there will come more topics for debate..... But the question here lies with what we ask, Does Stoffel van Vuuren really have these qualifications? Ask yourself then, Have I trained under such a person to querry the Authenticity of his/her style of MA, or is it because of his abillities / inabillities to teach.

    Do you understand that what you ask, is merelly a question to seek what we all know is the truth. Meaning in some ways He is a Master, and in some ways He is not. Oh Yes, His Certificates are under scrutiny here, and not him as a teacher. The two flags, South Africa - Country of Origin, USA - Affiliation, Training done there etc.... . Coat of Arms - Representing our country.... and so-on.

    Remember an old saying " What is the true purpose of wearing a belt" It is there so that you may not lose your pants - Or in the MA world your rank to which you are certified to wear. It also shows the rest at wich rank you stand. It's the same as wearing insignia's, eppilettes etc...

    Now the final question that you have asked from me, I will not divulge this yet, I need concrete proof that Soke van Vuuren is a "Fruad" like you have stated. Then I will post the photo of him and myself training. Then also an article on him advertised in a local news paper a few years back. Also a Certified Certificate by him at that time. I am not here to prove if he is innocent or guilty, just to show that what is just.

    Lastly when you are a teacher it goes about teaching that what you know, and that what works the best for that student, be practical, keep it down to the basics and then you watch your student grow to his / her full potential. Koga Hai Lung Ryu has worked for me, what about you?

    Regards
    Dutch
  6. StormChild is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/02/2008 3:54pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: BJJ, SCA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Unfortunately the burden of proof is not on us but on the person in question, Mr. Stoffel van Vuuren. The burden of proof also lies with the people who claims that Koga Hai Lung Ninjitsu is authentic. Produce the lineage/scrolls and I'll admit that the art is indeed authentic.

    Unfortunately Fujita Seiko did not pass on his knowledge of Koga Ryu WADA HA. Plus the Koga HAI LUNG is chinese in the art you are describing. Hai might mean Lung or Ash or even High but it does not make sense to me and Lung doesn't have meaning in Japanese as far as I can find. The Koga province was in JAPAN. Now if you have a different meaning for these words please inform me. Also if it comes from china, drop the Koga and Ninja parts, it doesn't fit.

    Quote Originally Posted by dutch
    Captain Ben Mangels opened up a Dojo in the Eastern Cape region, under Capt Ben Mangels, Shihan Barry Pictor Trained and was appointed by the Black Dragon Counsel Master Intructor of Region 9.
    Region 9 Being? Port Elizabeth?

    Quote Originally Posted by dutch
    When Shihan Barry Pictor anounced his retirement from active teaching/training, Soke Van Vuuren had the privelage to go abroad to further his studies, and yes it was when he had his 2nd degree in Koga Hai Lung Ryu Ninjitsu, and we all know the rest what followed.
    No, we don't know the rest that followed, that is exactly what we are trying to ascertain here.

    Quote Originally Posted by dutch
    Hope this helps, but it goes deeper than that, e.g. When you have trained for a period of time in any martial arts form you have the opportunity to be graded by a grading panel, consisting of Master's and Sensei's...... In such the Art which you are grading for the requirements from the panel have to consist of Senior Instructors such as what I have mentioned, now we have a scenario where you prove to have the abillity of a higher grade e.g you are 1st Dan and your prowess prove to be that of a 3rd Dan, then you are tested to that grading, when and if the grading is successful you have achieved it through means of what you have displayed then I'm sure that person with the Authority of that panel to award the Student/Sensei/Master to that degree.
    Now that is bs. In the first place Mr Stoffel holds a few ranks that was awarded to him as HONORARY... no grading neccessary, and in the second place if you believe that he is better at sekei shotokan karate than the current president who is 9th dan please send me video footage as proof. A kata will do, or anything. I have watched his videos and would have spent my time better watching paint dry. Now many of the Sensei I have met and worked with earned my respect. They are also very forthcoming with the people that trained them and qualifications. Why is Mr Stoffel so clandestine about it? Ah yes, the SECRET of ninjitsu being the ubermost secret society in the world ever..... but he trains other people in the art?... give me a break.

    Quote Originally Posted by dutch
    Many styles in the MA have a required syllabus to complete and some take 2-3 years, some 10 years. Each system depending on the abillity of a student can even jump a level in a grading, If you have a Master / Sensei that is unable to teach what is neccessary to any student then the student will be "left behind" then also you will have to face the "music" to such an effect of being not worthy to teach at all.
    Now the syllabus you are speaking of is for 10th kyu to 1st dan? or does it take 2-10 years to become a master? The pupils that are graded by the "master whom cannot teach" would pass if the master made up the syllabus, not so?

    Quote Originally Posted by dutch
    The Question regarding MOLI, about Authenticity is as follows, first yo got to prove beyond any reasonable doubt that Koga Hai Lung Ryu Ninjitsu does not exist, and if it does not exist, then the following Question I have to ask is: "What is all this mayhem regarding Stoffel's ranking...... Then the other Question, Master Kim? Who made him Master?
    Now you will note in my opening, and once again the burden of proof is on you to provide proof that the martial art is authentic. The mayhem is not only abouth Mr Stoffel being a bullshidoka but that he is using and selling the name BDFS illegally. And Mr Radford Davies (a.k.a Ashida Kim) made himself master. Or rather his master is so secret that he cannot even find himself.

    Quote Originally Posted by dutch
    We are seen by all, heard by all. When it comes to the crunch feared by all. So, What are you afraid of?
    Well I for one am not afraid. There is a open mat day every saturday if you want to join us in cape town. If you are speaking of some other intangible fear then I'm missing the point apparently.

    Quote Originally Posted by dutch
    I have had many questions regarding the true History of the Martial Arts, where did it come from, who made the first people Master's of their Art's? anything is questionable and there will come more topics for debate..... But the question here lies with what we ask, Does Stoffel van Vuuren really have these qualifications? Ask yourself then, Have I trained under such a person to querry the Authenticity of his/her style of MA, or is it because of his abillities / inabillities to teach.
    Now you might find that I already touched on this point earlier. The PRIMARY reason I have for being sceptic about Mr. Stoffels qualifications is because I was part of his version of the BDFS, namely the BDFS International. After having seen him it brought me to question his skills. The Sensei I have trained under has always supplied me with answers about their qualifications without hesitation. WHY DOESN'T HE? The second point is that the name and logo for the Black Dragon Fighting society is a registered trademark and the head of this organization is William Aguiar... not Ashida Kim or Stoffel.

    Quote Originally Posted by dutch
    Do you understand that what you ask, is merelly a question to seek what we all know is the truth. Meaning in some ways He is a Master, and in some ways He is not. Oh Yes, His Certificates are under scrutiny here, and not him as a teacher. The two flags, South Africa - Country of Origin, USA - Affiliation, Training done there etc.... . Coat of Arms - Representing our country.... and so-on.
    I understand very well what I ask, and if you read the other posts you'll see that it is not just the images on the certificate but his skills, the orrigin of his claims, the fact that he passes himself off as a master in arts that the masters don't even know about (for example kyushu jitsu). The fact that he takes money for something that's not his to sell. Now what part of that did I not understand?

    Quote Originally Posted by dutch
    Remember an old saying " What is the true purpose of wearing a belt" It is there so that you may not lose your pants - Or in the MA world your rank to which you are certified to wear. It also shows the rest at wich rank you stand. It's the same as wearing insignia's, eppilettes etc...
    You don't pass someone elses rank off as your own? Or do you? If you wan't I can put you in contact with someone that sells qualifications on the net; I think his name was Mr. A Kim, for $50 you can be a master of any art ;-) Didn't he and Mr van Vuuren have a few parties together? Oh yes, they are still on the International Sokeship Federation board of directors!!! http://www.ioskdka.com/WSCSK.html (you'll note that Mr Kim is on the board of directors and Mr van Vuuren is the Director of Africa...)

    Quote Originally Posted by dutch
    Now the final question that you have asked from me, I will not divulge this yet, I need concrete proof that Soke van Vuuren is a "Fruad" like you have stated. Then I will post the photo of him and myself training. Then also an article on him advertised in a local news paper a few years back. Also a Certified Certificate by him at that time. I am not here to prove if he is innocent or guilty, just to show that what is just.
    I know the people that trained with him. In fact the SANF refuses to join with him, the CNF too, so what now? The part that is fraud is using the BDFS logo and name. I'm sure you can read the court transcripts in one of the forums here.

    Quote Originally Posted by dutch
    Lastly when you are a teacher it goes about teaching that what you know, and that what works the best for that student, be practical, keep it down to the basics and then you watch your student grow to his / her full potential. Koga Hai Lung Ryu has worked for me, what about you?
    The question remains why do you do martial arts, and why do you do Koga Ryu? The choice is yours, but don't make something out to be authentic when it's not.
  7. Arcep is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/03/2008 4:25am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: None

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    While I understand that the question of Mr Van Vuuren's lineage is more important for this site, I do have another question about his qualifications. Where and when did he get his degrees?

    All I could find is that he received an honourary doctorate from the University of Caracas in Venezuela in martial arts acording to this report. (From the same site, he is also featured here and here.)


    Quote Originally Posted by lamokio
    So I trust you will see why I`am so frustrated by your inability to see my vision rather than you trying now to make money out of me? Is that the way all Martial Artists in USA work?
    I have studied from many institutes and have achieved two Doctorate Degrees and also have my LLB in Law?

    Now under the Roman Law that is also your law you have no rights to claim funds from me.
    The above is from the emails on page 3.

    While his website does mention the two doctorates it doesn't mention his LLB nor where he studied.
  8. StormChild is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/03/2008 6:01am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: BJJ, SCA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The funny part is this; found at: http://www.ioskdka.com/WSCSK.html

    " W.S.CSK SCIENTIFIC COUNCIL
    IS THE COMMITTEE THAT AWARDS THE HIGHER TITLES AND GRADES OF MARTIAL ARTS SUCH AS (DOCTOR -PHD, M.A. - MANKYO KAIDEN) AFTER THE REQUIRED PROCEDURES HAVE BEEN FOLLOWED"

    Listed under the people is (drumroll);


    "MEMBER OF THE COUNCIL SCIENTIFIC
    PROFESSOR STOFFEL VAN VUUREN PHD,D.SC
    10 TH DAN NINJITSU
    SOUTH AFRICA"

    I wish I could bestow doctors/proffessorship degrees, he probably has a llb in "ancient roman law"
  9. dutch is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/04/2008 2:37pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Ninjitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Like I said i'm not here to defend Stoffel, nor anyone else. You ask for proof, and I will supply what I know when you can produce such proof to him being a fraud.

    Yes, my information can be used for better or worse. But what what I have are facts.

    Why don't you then invite Stoffel to your open mat day, and let him enter one of the "Kumite's" that would stop all this bickering about him being worthy of being a Soke / Master or Trickster.

    The fact about "Why don't I buy my own Master's Degree" Well, I always worked hard for what I had to get in Life, being a Martial Artist didn't come overnight, it took allot of blood, sweat and tears. Why should I try defend those who are a "Fraud". My previous posts I said, I have no ties with Stoffel. Some time back I was also affiliated to the SANF under Adrian Fitsgerald, he can vouch for me, also Shihan B. Pictor.

    I have nothing to prove to anyone, give me what I ask and I shall supply you with what I know. Knowledge is power.

    Regards
    Dutch
  10. ninjoo is offline

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    Aug 2007
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    Posted On:
    1/04/2008 3:54pm


     Style: Bujinkan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by dutch
    Like I said i'm not here to defend Stoffel, nor anyone else. You ask for proof, and I will supply what I know when you can produce such proof to him being a fraud.

    Yes, my information can be used for better or worse. But what what I have are facts.

    Why don't you then invite Stoffel to your open mat day, and let him enter one of the "Kumite's" that would stop all this bickering about him being worthy of being a Soke / Master or Trickster.

    The fact about "Why don't I buy my own Master's Degree" Well, I always worked hard for what I had to get in Life, being a Martial Artist didn't come overnight, it took allot of blood, sweat and tears. Why should I try defend those who are a "Fraud". My previous posts I said, I have no ties with Stoffel. Some time back I was also affiliated to the SANF under Adrian Fitsgerald, he can vouch for me, also Shihan B. Pictor.

    I have nothing to prove to anyone, give me what I ask and I shall supply you with what I know. Knowledge is power.

    Regards
    Dutch
    As a casual reader of this thread, I wish to point out that you have provided no facts whastsoever. You only have provided your opinions, with no real attempt to support them with any verifiable proof.

    Just because someone stands atop a park bench and screams "I'M RIGHT" doesn't in fact make them right - about anything.

    You, Dutch, are just a name on a reply on a forum.

    And whether Van Vuuren can fight or not has NOTHING whatsoever to do with the legitimacy of ANYTHING he claims.
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