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  1. derrickv is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/04/2008 4:15pm


     Style: karate

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Koga ryu ninjutsu extinct?

    Bits and pieces survive everywhere...
  2. Dsimon3387 is offline

    Senior Member

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    Posted On:
    1/04/2008 4:27pm

    Join us... or die
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    dsimon writes:

    I miss the good old days when Jawney would talk it up about droppign bodies and what not..... Van Stoffel is a Ninja its obvious. :new_astha
  3. dutch is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/05/2008 2:03am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Ninjitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Ninjoo,

    First establish if the council that have supplied the Martial Arts Diploma's are fake, then obviously all Certificate's then would be a fake through that same council.

    Contact each council then to verify each "Self proclaimed Soke's & Masters" There will be your proof.

    I also have asked for concrete proof from anyone that could really verify if Van Vuuren is a fraud. I would then with an open mind post what I have.

    If there is No Koga lineage, then why has it survived for so long?

    Regards
    Dutch.
    Ps. would you want me to use my real name here on the forum, or should I hide behind my nick "Dutch"
  4. derrickv is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/05/2008 11:57am


     Style: karate

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I was wondering, in your opinions, for ninjutsu is it only ppl who have trained under Masaaki that are 'legal' and 'authentic' "ninjas?" Sounds like a monopoly. Besides would other ninjas Really advertise like Bunjinkan?

    Points to ponder..
  5. ninjoo is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/05/2008 1:01pm


     Style: Bujinkan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by dutch
    Ninjoo,

    First establish if the council that have supplied the Martial Arts Diploma's are fake, then obviously all Certificate's then would be a fake through that same council.

    Contact each council then to verify each "Self proclaimed Soke's & Masters" There will be your proof.

    I also have asked for concrete proof from anyone that could really verify if Van Vuuren is a fraud. I would then with an open mind post what I have.

    If there is No Koga lineage, then why has it survived for so long?

    Regards
    Dutch.
    Ps. would you want me to use my real name here on the forum, or should I hide behind my nick "Dutch"
    Dutch, thank you for you polite reply. No, you should not use your real name because quite frankly very few here do. I don't. I won't ask you to do that which I don't do. If your name has some bearing on the issue, you can always pm me I suppose.

    You're asking that people prove a negative, in this case, "prove that it DOESN'T exist". That's a totally ineffective way to prove your point. Koga ryu survives today because in the 70's guys picked up that the name was abandonded, and they could appropriate it, and others, for a rubric for all their martial arts. Back then EVERYONE wanted to be a Ninja, but lots of guys already had black belts in TKD and Karate and such, and weren't about to empty their glass, especially when they could just pick up a Ninja Ryuha name like Koga, or Fuma Ryu, put it on like a dirty sweater, and be on their way. Ronald Duncan, Haranako Hoshino, Frank Dux, Ashida Kim et al, and a host of other Tae Kwon Do Ninjas throughout history.

    Anyway you look at it, there is no historical basis for Koga ryu. Fujita's connection with a real Koga lineage was nebulous at best. Irregardless the burden of proof still rests on you, not me or anyone else.

    If something doesn't exist, how can I prove it doesn't exist? Nice trick silly Rabbit, but tricks are for kids.
  6. ninjoo is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/05/2008 1:07pm


     Style: Bujinkan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by derrickv
    I was wondering, in your opinions, for ninjutsu is it only ppl who have trained under Masaaki that are 'legal' and 'authentic' "ninjas?" Sounds like a monopoly. Besides would other ninjas Really advertise like Bunjinkan?

    Points to ponder..
    Bujinkan is very tribal. Many still cling to the idea that Hatsumi Soke *does* have a monopoly on Ninjutsu.

    If you chose to be enslaved by that idea, then that's your choice. You can train in "Ninja Arts" all you wish. It's only when we begin arguing about history, and historical ryuha and lineage and such that the Bujinkan gets uppity.

    But much less so than in the past.

    Look up Pool's book on Amazon, "A Tiger's Way...". Pool, an Army or Marine officer looks at Ninjutsu inclusively, as a function of men, and includes ANYONE'S ideas who has EVER called themselves a Ninja, yes - including Ashida Kim.

    Ninjutsu as a function never went away, it's still practiced worldwide, especially when a people must defend themselves against a stronger, better armed military force. Actual Ninja Ryuha from ancient Japan are few and far between and very difficult to validate, historically speaking...
  7. derrickv is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/05/2008 2:55pm


     Style: karate

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You're right...ninja's more of a mindset than a set of skills. Just looking at that phrase "set of skills" destroys the essence of being a ninja. Labelling yourself "Bunjinkan" means limiting yourself to the "set of skills" established long ago by people who used these techniques to survive. Some are still valid but some are not. For me the bottom line is, take what works, discard the rest and don't box yourself in with styles. Call yourself whatever to deceive the enemy. Now that's thinking ninja.

    Quote Originally Posted by ninjoo
    Bujinkan is very tribal. Many still cling to the idea that Hatsumi Soke *does* have a monopoly on Ninjutsu.

    If you chose to be enslaved by that idea, then that's your choice. You can train in "Ninja Arts" all you wish. It's only when we begin arguing about history, and historical ryuha and lineage and such that the Bujinkan gets uppity.

    But much less so than in the past.

    Look up Pool's book on Amazon, "A Tiger's Way...". Pool, an Army or Marine officer looks at Ninjutsu inclusively, as a function of men, and includes ANYONE'S ideas who has EVER called themselves a Ninja, yes - including Ashida Kim.

    Ninjutsu as a function never went away, it's still practiced worldwide, especially when a people must defend themselves against a stronger, better armed military force. Actual Ninja Ryuha from ancient Japan are few and far between and very difficult to validate, historically speaking...
  8. derrickv is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/05/2008 3:02pm


     Style: karate

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Lineage is useless anyways. Some person could've learned both iga and koga styles, took the best from both styles and call his art 'Johhny's Karate'


    Quote Originally Posted by ninjoo

    Anyway you look at it, there is no historical basis for Koga ryu. Fujita's connection with a real Koga lineage was nebulous at best. Irregardless the burden of proof still rests on you, not me or anyone else.

    If something doesn't exist, how can I prove it doesn't exist? Nice trick silly Rabbit, but tricks are for kids.
  9. dutch is offline

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    Dec 2007
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    Posted On:
    1/05/2008 3:59pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Ninjitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Nice reply derrickv.

    I still did not receive anything I have asked for, you guys want me to openly admit that Stoffel is a fraud, but give me the proof of that and I will add what I have, my information could prove otherwise or even prove that "you" are right. So enlighten me.

    I have nothing to prove to anyone, I believe in doing the right thing.

    I am not here to play games, or even mind games.

    So if you are serious regarding the truth then place the truth here for me to see. If not, I will leave this forum. No harm done to anyone.

    Regards
    Dutch
  10. derrickv is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/05/2008 7:02pm


     Style: karate

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Ahh I've no truth for you. You gotta find that in yourself. Sounds like a D-class kung fu flick but it's true.
    Quote Originally Posted by dutch
    Nice reply derrickv.

    I still did not receive anything I have asked for, you guys want me to openly admit that Stoffel is a fraud, but give me the proof of that and I will add what I have, my information could prove otherwise or even prove that "you" are right. So enlighten me.

    I have nothing to prove to anyone, I believe in doing the right thing.

    I am not here to play games, or even mind games.

    So if you are serious regarding the truth then place the truth here for me to see. If not, I will leave this forum. No harm done to anyone.

    Regards
    Dutch
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