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  1. Partezan is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/21/2007 8:44pm


     Style: Kyokushin

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    What are Kung Fu principles?

    I was talking with this Kung Fu student and he told me that he would never do any other art because they have no "principals" Im sayed, yeah, we have principals, in karate we learn the proper way to move the body to generate the most power, there are many principals that work for different techniques, its not just techniques that we learn and the same goes for BJJ, like knowing that when grapling you need to be either really close to somebody or very far away from them to avoid getting taped because it's in the middle where all the submissions happon

    And he sayed, "yeah, thats not really principals those are also techniques"

    "What do you mean, what are principals then? give me an example?"

    he never did so Im wondering if anyone can enlightem me and give me an example of what someone means when they talk about principals in kung fu
  2. OZZ is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/21/2007 8:52pm

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     Style: Short Fist Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    This thread should be moved to the styles forum...
    This is a very broad question. There are many different styles and every style has its own principles..DUH!
    But this guy you were talking to sounds like he is full of **** anyways.
    Last edited by OZZ; 10/21/2007 9:46pm at .
    " If one wants to have a friend one must also want to wage war for him: and to wage war one must be capable of being an enemy." - Fr. Nietzsche 'On The Friend' Thus Spake Zarathustra
  3. cyril is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/21/2007 8:52pm


     Style: No-Gi BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Partezan
    I was talking with this Kung Fu student and he told me that he would never do any other art because they have no "principals" Im sayed, yeah, we have principals, in karate we learn the proper way to move the body to generate the most power, there are many principals that work for different techniques, its not just techniques that we learn and the same goes for BJJ, like knowing that when grapling you need to be either really close to somebody or very far away from them to avoid getting taped because it's in the middle where all the submissions happon

    And he sayed, "yeah, thats not really principals those are also techniques"

    "What do you mean, what are principals then? give me an example?"

    he never did so Im wondering if anyone can enlightem me and give me an example of what someone means when they talk about principals in kung fu
    A lot of Kung Fu **** is based on "We have the right way to use your body... To do this::ingun:

    In essence, I think your friend is spouting bullshido how his body is taught the natural way to attack an opponent, and you're just using modern crap.

    Your story is a bit vague, but that's what I get a lot when I ask Kung Fuers about their art, so I'm assuming it's something to do with that.
  4. djchangster is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/21/2007 10:26pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: the shaolin & wu tang

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I have no idea - a traditionally trained kung fu sifu is usually a doctor and a fighter


    is that what they mean
  5. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/21/2007 10:58pm

    supporting member
     Style: Bartitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Partezan
    I was talking with this Kung Fu student and he told me that he would never do any other art because they have no "principals" Im sayed, yeah, we have principals, in karate we learn the proper way to move the body to generate the most power, there are many principals that work for different techniques, its not just techniques that we learn and the same goes for BJJ, like knowing that when grapling you need to be either really close to somebody or very far away from them to avoid getting taped because it's in the middle where all the submissions happon

    And he sayed, "yeah, thats not really principals those are also techniques"

    "What do you mean, what are principals then? give me an example?"

    he never did so Im wondering if anyone can enlightem me and give me an example of what someone means when they talk about principals in kung fu
    As a general rule, "principles" are the fundamental technical or tactical bases of a given style. They are often considered to be "universal" in the sense that they operate independently of techniques, or that they underpin all or most of the techniques of the style in question.

    In a lot of traditional Asian martial arts, principles are described and typically discussed using poetic metaphors as a kind of shorthand; this is not to be confused with pseudo-science (chi, etc.) although there can be some cross-over into "mysticism".

    As poetic devices there is a lot of room for corruption of the original/intended meaning, especially when the art is passed between different languages and cultures, which IMO can lead to major misunderstandings. In whatever small village where such-and-such style was founded, it may have simply been understood that "cascade and penetrate" (or whatever) is just a quick nickname to describe a particular way of generating momentum in striking techniques. When the same style is taken out of its original cultural context, that principle may require much more detailed explanation to avoid confusion.

    I haven't studied any traditional Chinese MA at the practical level, but I can cite some theory as an example. Chen Tai Chi is based on the principle of chan szu jing which translates into English as "silk reeling energy". This is an example of a principle, or actually a set of principles, short-handed into a poetic name (which is much more typical of Chinese language than of English).

    "Sil reeling energy" is further sub-divided into the principles of Peng (expand/adhere), Lu (divert, hold, and pull), Ji (follow and push), Ahn (cover the arms and push), Kau (lean or strike with the shoulder, knee, or hip), Zhou (grab and strike with elbow), Cai (hold and twist), and Lie (step in and throw from behind). Nothing mystical in there, again, these are just poetic shorthand terms to descibe some principles of strategy and body mechanics. From a purely bio-mechanical and strategic viewpoint, you could probably classify numerous techniques from multiple styles as being examples of these principles in action.

    IMO most of the confusion is at the semantic level, in that it can be hard to discuss principles without using technical examples, which can lead to a confusion between the principle and the technique. To me, it sounds as if the guy you were talking to didn't really have this distinction clear in his own mind.
    Last edited by DdlR; 10/21/2007 11:07pm at .
  6. Tom Kagan is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/22/2007 7:10am

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     Style: Taai Si Ji Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Moved from MABS and corrected the god-awful wrong word choice of "principal".
    Calm down, it's only ones and zeros.

    "Your calm and professional manner of response is really draining all the fun out of this. Can you reply more like Dr. Fagbot or something? Call me some names, mention some sand in my vagina or something of the sort. You can't expect me to come up with reasonable arguments man!" -- MaverickZ

    "Tom Kagan spins in his grave and the fucking guy isn't even dead yet." -- Snake Plissken

    My Bullshido fan club threads:
    Tom Kagan's a big hairy...
    Tom Kagan can lick my BALLS
    Tom Kagan teaches _ing __un and bigotry?
    Tom Kagan: Serious discussion here
    Lamokio asks the burning question is Tom Kagan a ***** or just cruising for some
    I'm Dave the gay Kickboxer from Manchester and I have the hots for Tom Kagan
    TOM KAGAN, OPEN ME, THE MKT ARE COMING FOR YOU ! ARE YOU MAN ENOUGH TO MEET ?
    ATTN TOM KAGAN
    World Dominator 'Kagan' in plot to lie about real Kung Fu and Martial Arts
    Tom Kagan just gave me my third negative rep in a day
    I am infatuated with Tom Kagan
    Tom Kagan is a fat balding white guy.
  7. Teh El Macho is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/22/2007 8:15am

    supporting member
     Style: creonte on hiatus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Partezan
    I was talking with this Kung Fu student and he told me that he would never do any other art because they have no "principals" Im sayed, yeah, we have principals, in karate we learn the proper way to move the body to generate the most power, there are many principals that work for different techniques, its not just techniques that we learn and the same goes for BJJ, like knowing that when grapling you need to be either really close to somebody or very far away from them to avoid getting taped because it's in the middle where all the submissions happon

    And he sayed, "yeah, thats not really principals those are also techniques"

    "What do you mean, what are principals then? give me an example?"

    he never did so Im wondering if anyone can enlightem me and give me an example of what someone means when they talk about principals in kung fu
    The fact that he was incapable (unwilling) to explain what those "principles" mean, that should have been your first red flag that he was talking poetic bullshit just make himself and his art better, distinct and above the others.

    When a person states something (a fundamental difference as in the case of this kung fu guy) as truth but he's uncapable of describing it, that's a sure sign that person had his asshole and mouth surgically removed and switched places.

    It something from this material world cannot be explained, it should be doubted.

    There is a lot of people in the martial arts who say crap that makes no sense without actually backing it up... like this guy...

    Quote Originally Posted by djchangster
    I have no idea - a traditionally trained kung fu sifu is usually a doctor and a fighter


    is that what they mean
    Read this for flexibility and injury prevention, this, this and this for supplementation, this on grip conditioning, and this on staph. New: On strenght standards, relationships and structural balance. Shoulder problems? Read this.

    My crapuous vlog and my blog of training, stuff and crap. NEW: Me, Mrs. Macho and our newborn baby.

    New To Weight Training? Get the StrongLifts 5x5 program and Rippetoe's "Starting Strength, 2nd Ed". Wanna build muscle/gain weight? Check this article. My review on Tactical Nutrition here.

    t-nation - Dissecting the deadlift. Anatomy and Muscle Balancing Videos.

    The street argument is retarded. BJJ is so much overkill for the street that its ridiculous. Unless you're the idiot that picks a fight with the high school wrestling team, barring knife or gun play, the opponent shouldn't make it past double leg + ground and pound - Osiris
  8. Rivington is online now
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    Posted On:
    10/22/2007 8:17am

    supporting member
     Style: Taijiquan/Shuai-Chiao/BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    He doesn't mean doctor, he means "doctor." Herbs and bone-setting and meridians and nonsense.
  9. Teh El Macho is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/22/2007 8:27am

    supporting member
     Style: creonte on hiatus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Ah, traditional healer. Actually, I have a lot of faith on traditional healers (since I come from a country that until not long ago relied on them.)

    But still, even with the hocus pocus, to become a traditional healer takes years (and usually in a culture that supports and embraces the concept.) I won't say anything on the subject of "traditional sifu == traditional healer" since I don't know **** about it.
    Read this for flexibility and injury prevention, this, this and this for supplementation, this on grip conditioning, and this on staph. New: On strenght standards, relationships and structural balance. Shoulder problems? Read this.

    My crapuous vlog and my blog of training, stuff and crap. NEW: Me, Mrs. Macho and our newborn baby.

    New To Weight Training? Get the StrongLifts 5x5 program and Rippetoe's "Starting Strength, 2nd Ed". Wanna build muscle/gain weight? Check this article. My review on Tactical Nutrition here.

    t-nation - Dissecting the deadlift. Anatomy and Muscle Balancing Videos.

    The street argument is retarded. BJJ is so much overkill for the street that its ridiculous. Unless you're the idiot that picks a fight with the high school wrestling team, barring knife or gun play, the opponent shouldn't make it past double leg + ground and pound - Osiris
  10. Opedus is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/22/2007 8:30am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Lai Tung Pai Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Traditionally many Kung Fu Sifus were chinese medicinal practioners. My style included teaches the medicine as part of the curriculum. Think of how many styles use Dit Da Jow. That's an herbal remedy that is used worldwide by many different styles, and is made by chinese medicinal practioners. My Sifu makes the Jow as will I when i get to that level. You really shouldn't assume that something is dribbled crap when you have never been in a style that does teach the medicine.


    Hit the submit evidentally after macho admitted not knowing of sifus and doctors . Sorry macho
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