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  1. selfcritical is offline

    Senior Member

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    Posted On:
    11/15/2007 4:14pm


     Style: Pekiti, ARMA, other stuff

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Kagan
    Matt Thornton does post here, albeit very infrequently.

    Instead of stuffing more straw into that man you are setting up to knock over, why not send a quick email and/or PM to Matt Thornton with a link to this thread and ask him to address directly what he meant by the words of his you read?
    Advantage to that: Matts a smart guy, and his posts will ge the points across pretty quickly

    Disadvantage: all matts actually going to do is cut-and-paste the same analogies he does in every single forum post ever, with the same words bolded.
  2. Tom Kagan is offline
    Tom Kagan's Avatar

    Dark Overlord of the Bullshido Underworld

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    Posted On:
    11/15/2007 4:28pm

    supporting member
     Style: Taai Si Ji Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by selfcritical
    Disadvantage: all matts actually going to do is cut-and-paste the same analogies he does in every single forum post ever, with the same words bolded.
    Yeah, but you'll get to make fun of him for that.

    :smile:
    Calm down, it's only ones and zeros.

    "Your calm and professional manner of response is really draining all the fun out of this. Can you reply more like Dr. Fagbot or something? Call me some names, mention some sand in my vagina or something of the sort. You can't expect me to come up with reasonable arguments man!" -- MaverickZ

    "Tom Kagan spins in his grave and the fucking guy isn't even dead yet." -- Snake Plissken

    My Bullshido fan club threads:
    Tom Kagan's a big hairy...
    Tom Kagan can lick my BALLS
    Tom Kagan teaches _ing __un and bigotry?
    Tom Kagan: Serious discussion here
    Lamokio asks the burning question is Tom Kagan a ***** or just cruising for some
    I'm Dave the gay Kickboxer from Manchester and I have the hots for Tom Kagan
    TOM KAGAN, OPEN ME, THE MKT ARE COMING FOR YOU ! ARE YOU MAN ENOUGH TO MEET ?
    ATTN TOM KAGAN
    World Dominator 'Kagan' in plot to lie about real Kung Fu and Martial Arts
    Tom Kagan just gave me my third negative rep in a day
    I am infatuated with Tom Kagan
    Tom Kagan is a fat balding white guy.
  3. Bolverk is offline

    Ex-ATA and Proud of it.

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    Posted On:
    11/16/2007 6:35pm


     Style: Jeet Kune Do

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by selfcritical
    Teaching trapping as a range is silly, and in that at least his assesment is correct.
    Why? What do you back this blanket statement up with? Nothing as far as I can tell. Trapping is tool that is used within a specific range. It is effective. It is simple. It is direct. And, it is easy to learn.
    Knowing it is not enough, we must apply.
    Willing is not enough, we must do.

    Never approach a Bull from the front, a Horse from the rear, or a Fool from any direction!

    He who dares not offend cannot be honest. -- Thomas Payne
  4. selfcritical is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/16/2007 11:29pm


     Style: Pekiti, ARMA, other stuff

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Bolverk
    Why? What do you back this blanket statement up with? Nothing as far as I can tell. Trapping is tool that is used within a specific range. It is effective. It is simple. It is direct. And, it is easy to learn.
    THe only success I have ever seen in trapping techniques has been to quickly shift ranges(usually by closing). Generally, extended trapping results in the clinch, but if you're the one trying to initiate the clinch this isn't so much a problem.
  5. Dr._Tzun_Tzu is offline
    Dr._Tzun_Tzu's Avatar

    It's pretty beat up, but it is a complete copy....

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    Posted On:
    11/17/2007 1:35am

    supporting member
     Style: EBMAS WT/ Latosa Concepts

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Couldn't you say that a clinch is a form of a trap?...:-)

    Chi Sau is a specific training set but the desired effect, to make decisions based on pressure and contact angle not only on visual guessing.

    BJJ has this Tactile training
    Judo has it
    Boxing has it
    even Muay Thai will have it in the elbows clinching
    Kendo has it
    Budo Sword has it
    fencing has it...
    ....


    and yes, FMA has it.

    Since WC is based around this concept and has a SPECIFIC drill for it, unlike everyone else, this TYPE of excercise is often called chi sau even if it is in FMA. Don't worry, the BJJers hate it just as much...

    In WT we are taught that the end goal is a blade system. When blades collide you must move around the pressure and continue or push off the press into a safer position. Since blades cut through soft targets it is practiced with arms and punches to be safe. This works well since ultimatly the limbs have to FEEL the energy anyway. even if comes down from a weapon.

    Latosa Escrima gets most of its students from WT and we have this presure sensing system allready, so we do not do alot of those FMA flow cycles to build up the muscle reaction patterns. It just synergizes........

    "If anything is gained from this, it should be you both wanting to get better so you can make up for how crappy you are now." KidSpatula about the Sirc vs DTT Gong Sau Event
    Until the Bulltube is fixed:
    DTT vs Sirc

  6. Just Guess is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/19/2007 9:03am


     Style: ukemi & tapping out

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr._Tzun_Tzu
    Couldn't you say that a clinch is a form of a trap?
    I wouldn't. Whenever I hear this it just seems like an attempt to justify trapping by associating it with something that has been shown to work consistently. It's really easy to tell the difference from just looking at them side by side. In trapping the only prolonged contact would come from just passive touching, like in chi sao, which is pretty much impossible to maintain. You're just trying to clear a limb so you can strike after all. When you clinch you want to maintain that contact by hooking with the arms or using strong grips, and the goal is to use leverage to control a persons movement and balance.
  7. Dr._Tzun_Tzu is offline
    Dr._Tzun_Tzu's Avatar

    It's pretty beat up, but it is a complete copy....

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    Posted On:
    11/19/2007 12:51pm

    supporting member
     Style: EBMAS WT/ Latosa Concepts

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Just Guess
    I wouldn't. Whenever I hear this it just seems like an attempt to justify trapping by associating it with something that has been shown to work consistently. It's really easy to tell the difference from just looking at them side by side. In trapping the only prolonged contact would come from just passive touching, like in chi sao, which is pretty much impossible to maintain. You're just trying to clear a limb so you can strike after all. When you clinch you want to maintain that contact by hooking with the arms or using strong grips, and the goal is to use leverage to control a persons movement and balance.
    Well, it was a joke, but no....clinching is a trap. You are preventing them from striking with the arms by trapping them in a "hug".

    JKD Trapping is something specific I will agree. Many of the traps are close to submission holds but without the leverege to make them painful.

    Escrima has a technique set called "lock and block" which passes and sometimes traps the attacking limb. This may be the source of JKD traps and not WC.

    I do WT and "trapping" is not a technique we do on purpose. Sometimes the other guy gets all tangles up trying to control chain punching, but we do not seek out a trap. Maybe a pin, which as you said is not easy to maintain, but trying to trap just gets you trapped usually.


    Back on topic, there are many overlapping techinique sets between FMA and _ing __un. Especially when you get up to the double knivs in the chun and the "chain of Palms" emptyhand in Escrima.

    "If anything is gained from this, it should be you both wanting to get better so you can make up for how crappy you are now." KidSpatula about the Sirc vs DTT Gong Sau Event
    Until the Bulltube is fixed:
    DTT vs Sirc

  8. Bolverk is offline

    Ex-ATA and Proud of it.

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    Posted On:
    11/19/2007 3:12pm


     Style: Jeet Kune Do

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by selfcritical
    THe only success I have ever seen in trapping techniques has been to quickly shift ranges(usually by closing). Generally, extended trapping results in the clinch, but if you're the one trying to initiate the clinch this isn't so much a problem.
    That is what trapping is, move in, pin the striking arm and drill them a quick shot into the face, then transition to something else. I think it is great.
    Knowing it is not enough, we must apply.
    Willing is not enough, we must do.

    Never approach a Bull from the front, a Horse from the rear, or a Fool from any direction!

    He who dares not offend cannot be honest. -- Thomas Payne
  9. Ryno is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/19/2007 4:03pm


     Style: FMA, Jujutsu/Judo/SAMBO

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Bolverk, that sums up my attitude toward trapping too.

    If you are able to stay in trapping range with any opponent for more than one or two checks, then that opponent is an idiot. Anyone with half of a brain in their head will instantly clear out to largo, or move in to clinch and throw. It is ridiculous to stand there in trapping range handfighting and slapping at each other.

    It is good to be aware of trapping, how to apply it and how to avoid being trapped. Personally, I am fairly good at it. But to me it is just fairly common sense, and the ridiculous lengths to which some systems drill it and try to apply it is just quite laughable. If you can entangle someone, entangle them and hit them. If their guard is in your way, move it and hit them. That's really about all there is to it.

    It is a transitional range in a real fight. As soon as you have someone trapped, you should just knock the living hell out of them. If you don't they will either bail out, or rush to smother/tackle you.
  10. Just Guess is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/21/2007 2:19am


     Style: ukemi & tapping out

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr._Tzun_Tzu
    Well, it was a joke, but no....clinching is a trap. You are preventing them from striking with the arms by trapping them in a "hug".
    I've only seen this application of clinching in boxing, and boxing is not the first place to look for proper clinching. Take a look at wrestling instead. Clinching is huge in the standup part of wrestling, and it's used to control an opponents movements and either setup or prevent takedowns. Even Muay Thai, a striking art that puts actual emphasis on clinching, primarily uses it to control an opponents movement and structure for elbow and knee strikes, not to prevent strikes.
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