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  1. variance is offline

    Registered Member

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    Posted On:
    10/20/2007 8:09am


     Style: EF UM A

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Criticism of FMA drills. / Being compared to ChiSao

    I was recently reading the thread "Progressive thoughts on Styles" in the CMA thread.

    I noticed a criticism/comparison of Hubud-Hubud drills to Chi-Sao made by Straight Blast Gym. Reference: (http://www.straightblastgym.com/where.htm)

    Matt and the SBG introduced the proper clinch as taken from Greco to the Martial Arts world at large, at a time when most JKD schools where still teaching chi-sau and hubud
    I'm just curious as to the rationale for categorizing Hubud-Hubud / Gunting / Sinawali type boxing drills in the same category as Chunner Chi Sao.

    One of my biggest MA peeves is people claiming empty hand FMA is the same as Wing Chun or vice versa. or even that they are similar or have similar/identical principles and techs.

    Hoping this can also spark a discussion for criticism of the alive/free empty hand drills in the FMA. Are they effective? Can these techniques/strategies work against a MMAer.

    and maybe a compare contrast to the specific "clinch" techniques SBGi is referring to.



    Reference of Hubud and FMA drills:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Gp9mFcoUic
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fnQr0CVJTM


    Reference of "Chunner" Chi Sao:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qaP1X-lEtgc


    Beginning of the first video I can sort of see a resemblence but it feels like its more alive. The second part of the first video is better. These probably weren't the best examples of FMA drills I could locate. Dog Brothers Kali Tudo is probably much more relevant.
    Last edited by variance; 10/20/2007 8:15am at .
  2. variance is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/20/2007 8:16am


     Style: EF UM A

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hm ok. Here's a video of the DB in Kali Tudo.
    The Dog Brothers are the closest thing FMA has to the SBGi.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTiiudoefSE
  3. Epa is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/20/2007 11:45pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: FMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think that several styles use the terms hubad, I know Doce Pares does. The only one that I'm really familiar with is the Inosanto blend. So for the inosanto blend:

    Hubad has several components to it:
    1. Upper body striking
    2. Upper body clinching
    3. Lower body kicking/kneeing
    4. Lower body checking/sweeping
    5. Joint locking finishes/breaks

    The four count hubad drill that most people do is the basic seek the path drill from the upper body striking component. This is the one you see done in the first clip. I think that the upper body striking drills aren't as useful for empty hands as they are with weapons. With a knife or a stick in your hand the lines of attack make a lot more sense than with an empty hand. You can do it with empty hand, but it's just easier to use boxing. I tend to lump all of the gunting material into this category (it's more useful with a weapon than with empty hand).

    The upper body clinching skill set is actually pretty similar to Greco in a lot of ways. The major difference is that Greco (as I understand it) seeks to get to the torso so that they can throw. However, the inosanto blend clinching focuses on neck ties or arm ties. Presumably, this is because it's worried about the free hand drawing the knife.

    There is also a unique clinch position where you check the outside of the elbow that I haven't seen in non-weapon systems. This is a really useful position in countering a cross draw or getting to the outside to quarter someone (seen in some of the knife drills). The training method is essentially pummeling for position. With Guro Dan, you learn the techniques in a give and take format, but then you should begin contesting it (pummeling).

    Honestly, I haven't seen Guro Dan teach as much of the lower body material. He doesn't teach the low line kicking and kneeing as FMA that much. In general, he says that you should learn muay thai for that skillset. He still teaches the low line foot sectoring/sweeping and relates it to silat techniques a lot. This is an area that the
    FMA material seems to overlap with Majapahit silat material that he teaches.

    With regard to the joint locking/breaking stuff. I haven't seen him teach this very much either. The few pieces I have seen look a lot like Hapkido joint locks that you pick up out of motion. In general, I think of hubad as a controlled sparring format that is ideal if you don't have any protective gear or you want to isolate certain skillsets, but that's just my take on it. I'm curious to see what others have to say.

    That was a stupidly long post, sorry.
  4. variance is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/21/2007 1:02am


     Style: EF UM A

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Epa
    I think that several styles use the terms hubad, I know Doce Pares does. The only one that I'm really familiar with is the Inosanto blend. So for the inosanto blend:

    Hubad has several components to it:
    1. Upper body striking
    2. Upper body clinching
    3. Lower body kicking/kneeing
    4. Lower body checking/sweeping
    5. Joint locking finishes/breaks

    The four count hubad drill that most people do is the basic seek the path drill from the upper body striking component. This is the one you see done in the first clip. I think that the upper body striking drills aren't as useful for empty hands as they are with weapons. With a knife or a stick in your hand the lines of attack make a lot more sense than with an empty hand. You can do it with empty hand, but it's just easier to use boxing. I tend to lump all of the gunting material into this category (it's more useful with a weapon than with empty hand).

    The upper body clinching skill set is actually pretty similar to Greco in a lot of ways. The major difference is that Greco (as I understand it) seeks to get to the torso so that they can throw. However, the inosanto blend clinching focuses on neck ties or arm ties. Presumably, this is because it's worried about the free hand drawing the knife.

    There is also a unique clinch position where you check the outside of the elbow that I haven't seen in non-weapon systems. This is a really useful position in countering a cross draw or getting to the outside to quarter someone (seen in some of the knife drills). The training method is essentially pummeling for position. With Guro Dan, you learn the techniques in a give and take format, but then you should begin contesting it (pummeling).

    Honestly, I haven't seen Guro Dan teach as much of the lower body material. He doesn't teach the low line kicking and kneeing as FMA that much. In general, he says that you should learn muay thai for that skillset. He still teaches the low line foot sectoring/sweeping and relates it to silat techniques a lot. This is an area that the
    FMA material seems to overlap with Majapahit silat material that he teaches.

    With regard to the joint locking/breaking stuff. I haven't seen him teach this very much either. The few pieces I have seen look a lot like Hapkido joint locks that you pick up out of motion. In general, I think of hubad as a controlled sparring format that is ideal if you don't have any protective gear or you want to isolate certain skillsets, but that's just my take on it. I'm curious to see what others have to say.

    That was a stupidly long post, sorry.
    This is bullshido. Thought there was a forum rule about not apologizing. :P
    and I appreciated and liked reading what you had to say on the matter.
    Whenever I read about FMA here on the style forums I feel way out of my class.
    people knitpicking beats/rhythms, specific angles of movement in footwork.

    As for the jointbreaking stuff.. I was referring to the stop-breaks I've been learning in modern arnis along witht he buno / small circle jujitsu grappling flow stuff and stick/joint locks.

    I think i took his quote out of context unconsciously. He was probably talking about FMA as JKD schools were teaching it. where they would be teaching it more like Chi-Sao.. making it essentially FMA Chun.

    I was curious because most of the FMA empty hand drills I see, I tend to group together with boxing drills like you do.
  5. Scott Larson is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/21/2007 9:11am


     Style: Ba Zheng Dao Quan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I've never done much research into Dog Brothers, but after seeing video of Marc Denny, I really like his teaching style.
    ________________________________________

    Authentic Kung Fu in Buffalo, NY

    http://www.buffalokungfu.com


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  6. Bolverk is offline

    Ex-ATA and Proud of it.

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    Posted On:
    11/15/2007 3:58pm


     Style: Jeet Kune Do

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think there is some confusion going on. Where I study, we call hubud/lubud the Chi Sao of Filipino Martial Arts, but we also emphasis the difference. Chi Sao is a sensitivity drill designed to help you feel what the next move is when you are engaged. Hubud/Lubud is a free form flow drill where you are you are striking without being engaged. I use the term engaged to reference distance.

    In Chi Sao, your hands and forearms are touching each other with forward pressure. In Hubud/Lubud, the only contact is when you block or get struck. Hubud/Lubud is about reaction to what you see, where Chi Sao is about reaction to what you feel (sensitivity).

    And, as a last point, wasn't it Paul Vunak and Danny Inosanto that brought the clinch into JKD, rather then Straight Blast Gym?
    Knowing it is not enough, we must apply.
    Willing is not enough, we must do.

    Never approach a Bull from the front, a Horse from the rear, or a Fool from any direction!

    He who dares not offend cannot be honest. -- Thomas Payne
  7. selfcritical is offline

    Senior Member

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    Posted On:
    11/15/2007 4:02pm


     Style: Pekiti, ARMA, other stuff

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    From what I know of both Pekiti and Insosanto Kali, they don't use the forearm guiding as a substitution for clinching........BECAUSE THEY ALREADY HAVE greco-style clinchwork.
  8. selfcritical is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/15/2007 4:04pm


     Style: Pekiti, ARMA, other stuff

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Also, particularly in Insosanto lineage, many of the Hubud drills are entries to or changing position in a clinch, and are set up in such a way that you could simply begin contesting them.
  9. Tom Kagan is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/15/2007 4:04pm

    supporting member
     Style: Taai Si Ji Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Matt Thornton does post here, albeit very infrequently.

    Instead of stuffing more straw into that man you are setting up to knock over, why not send a quick email and/or PM to Matt Thornton with a link to this thread and ask him to address directly what he meant by the words of his you read?
    Calm down, it's only ones and zeros.

    "Your calm and professional manner of response is really draining all the fun out of this. Can you reply more like Dr. Fagbot or something? Call me some names, mention some sand in my vagina or something of the sort. You can't expect me to come up with reasonable arguments man!" -- MaverickZ

    "Tom Kagan spins in his grave and the fucking guy isn't even dead yet." -- Snake Plissken

    My Bullshido fan club threads:
    Tom Kagan's a big hairy...
    Tom Kagan can lick my BALLS
    Tom Kagan teaches _ing __un and bigotry?
    Tom Kagan: Serious discussion here
    Lamokio asks the burning question is Tom Kagan a ***** or just cruising for some
    I'm Dave the gay Kickboxer from Manchester and I have the hots for Tom Kagan
    TOM KAGAN, OPEN ME, THE MKT ARE COMING FOR YOU ! ARE YOU MAN ENOUGH TO MEET ?
    ATTN TOM KAGAN
    World Dominator 'Kagan' in plot to lie about real Kung Fu and Martial Arts
    Tom Kagan just gave me my third negative rep in a day
    I am infatuated with Tom Kagan
    Tom Kagan is a fat balding white guy.
  10. selfcritical is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/15/2007 4:06pm


     Style: Pekiti, ARMA, other stuff

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by variance
    I was recently reading the thread "Progressive thoughts on Styles" in the CMA thread.

    I noticed a criticism/comparison of Hubud-Hubud drills to Chi-Sao made by Straight Blast Gym. Reference: (http://www.straightblastgym.com/where.htm)


    I'm just curious as to the rationale for categorizing Hubud-Hubud / Gunting / Sinawali type boxing drills in the same category as Chunner Chi Sao.

    One of my biggest MA peeves is people claiming empty hand FMA is the same as Wing Chun or vice versa. or even that they are similar or have similar/identical principles and techs.

    Hoping this can also spark a discussion for criticism of the alive/free empty hand drills in the FMA. Are they effective? Can these techniques/strategies work against a MMAer.

    and maybe a compare contrast to the specific "clinch" techniques SBGi is referring to.



    Reference of Hubud and FMA drills:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Gp9mFcoUic
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fnQr0CVJTM


    Reference of "Chunner" Chi Sao:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qaP1X-lEtgc


    Beginning of the first video I can sort of see a resemblence but it feels like its more alive. The second part of the first video is better. These probably weren't the best examples of FMA drills I could locate. Dog Brothers Kali Tudo is probably much more relevant.
    I think at the time he was training JKD matt, primarily saw "trapping range" flow drills from various systems, as opposed to the greco he saw later. Teaching trapping as a range is silly, and in that at least his assesment is correct.
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