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  1. eyebeams is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/19/2007 12:48pm


     Style: Kickboxing/Grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by KempoFist
    Yes and no. Done "properly" you shouldn't be putting that kind of impact on your knee, but unfortunately in the heat of the moment, you don't always have time to use picture perfect technique, and may bang your knee.

    Here's a video ironically of a Ninjutsu school who trains very much "alive" and since they are crazy ninjas, they spar in the desert on rocks :) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Va4lT30qXw

    1:11 point, the guy uses a modified double leg that I use quite frequently, where you slip in and use your penetrating foot to post behind the leg. A bit easier on the knees IMO.
    Looks neat. My only caveat is that I think when somebody says, "well see, this pro MMA fighter did it wrong, but it's still true!" you have to ask yourself, who the **** is going to do it right when a pro does it wrong? (The answer isn't to dump the technique, but it's still worth asking). This doesn't apply to gimmicky fighters, though.

    That's more a difference in necessary tactic than technique. The techniques you use remain the same, but depending on the kind of feedback you get from your opponent dictates your tactics. If he stands just outside the pocket and tries to trade with you, then yeah, distance with a jab and light him up. If he flies at you balls to the wall, then clinch, knee and slam him.
    Sure, but I don't think, "Well, you may as well clinch" is the long and short of it.

    Wrestlers and Judoka's have been working that for years. Whizzers, counters, escapes, reversals.
    Admittedly my own personal training only covers a fraction of this, the knowledge is there.
    Sure.

    Read the "2nd stage" of a confrontation in my initial post.
    Missed the "JJJ" in there.
  2. Ke?poFist is offline
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    Enforcer of Northeast Anti-Silliness Department Inc.

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    Posted On:
    10/19/2007 12:58pm

    supporting member
     Style: Kaju, BJJ, Judo, Kempo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by eyebeams
    Looks neat. My only caveat is that I think when somebody says, "well see, this pro MMA fighter did it wrong, but it's still true!" you have to ask yourself, who the **** is going to do it right when a pro does it wrong? (The answer isn't to dump the technique, but it's still worth asking). This doesn't apply to gimmicky fighters, though.
    Point taken. To be honest, the only time I see myself double legging in a street fight, is if I am swinging up top nice and close, and I just drop down to scoop his legs. But I probably wouldn't go knee to the ground, and merely switch levels and scoop. Not as clean but safer.

    Shooting from the outside under a punch and the like, I just don't see myself doing.



    Sure, but I don't think, "Well, you may as well clinch" is the long and short of it.
    Was just an example. There's countless ways to deal with a situation. But yes I concede that some important parts of the "sport" gameplan, don't carry as much weight in the street fighting gameplan. Ring control, and pacing being two such things.



    Missed the "JJJ" in there.
    This actually made me laugh out loud! :icon_razz

    Did referencing JJJ actually make the point being described prior THAT much clearer!? Jeez, lol
    Knowing is not enough, you must apply...
    ...Willing is not enough you must do
    ~Bruce Lee

  3. eyebeams is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/19/2007 1:38pm


     Style: Kickboxing/Grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by KempoFist
    Point taken. To be honest, the only time I see myself double legging in a street fight, is if I am swinging up top nice and close, and I just drop down to scoop his legs. But I probably wouldn't go knee to the ground, and merely switch levels and scoop. Not as clean but safer.

    Shooting from the outside under a punch and the like, I just don't see myself doing.
    Well, you might get smacked but it's not like punches make you explode into a million pieces. There's a lesson self-defense-oriented teachers could stand to learn

    Was just an example. There's countless ways to deal with a situation. But yes I concede that some important parts of the "sport" gameplan, don't carry as much weight in the street fighting gameplan. Ring control, and pacing being two such things.
    I'm not saying they're never there, though. Remember that I am in no way saying that MMA doesn't work or anything.

    I think there are a couple of things that don't work very well against a cautious striker that work pretty well against a sloppy clincher, like posting the chest away and delivering repeated blows to the same area.

    This actually made me laugh out loud! :icon_razz

    Did referencing JJJ actually make the point being described prior THAT much clearer!? Jeez, lol
    I read JJJ around here as "Doing wristlocks and crap."
  4. danjo is offline
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    1st degree Black Belt in Kajukenbo Original Method

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    Posted On:
    10/19/2007 1:45pm

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     Style: Kajukenbo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Most of my experience as a bouncer and watching my fair share of bouncers tells me that those fights had precious little to do with MMA style fighting. I'll admit that is is a far better way to train than typical Karate-type sparring, but it still lacks some essential elements.

    Most of the fights I've seen were won by the guy that got the first shot off and just kept hitting till the other guy was out.
    "I'll Try To Be Nicer, If You'll Try To Be Smarter "

    "When You Are Standing on the Edge of a Cliff a Step Forward Is Not Progress "

    "Stonehenge, where the demons dwell, where the banshees live and they do it well..."
  5. Ke?poFist is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/19/2007 2:18pm

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     Style: Kaju, BJJ, Judo, Kempo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by danjo
    Most of the fights I've seen were won by the guy that got the first shot off and just kept hitting till the other guy was out.
    I was never a bouncer, but from what I've seen this is on the money. I did however see a bouncer do a beautiful double leg on some drunk and slam him on his head. He and another bouncer were heavily outnumbered, but they just cleaned house till the cops came.

    But I think that knowing how to throw a tight punch, with your chin protected out of habit is one of the most important things to learn whether you learn it in MMA, Boxing, Muay Thai, Kajukenbo, Kenpo, or whatever. This will definitely help you be that guy who connects first.
    Knowing is not enough, you must apply...
    ...Willing is not enough you must do
    ~Bruce Lee

  6. Christian_ is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/19/2007 5:08pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The desert grappling was pretty crazy, that whole video was definitely better than anything I saw in my Kenpo school.
  7. krazy kaju is offline
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    I'm not witty enough for this custom title.

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    Posted On:
    10/20/2007 3:42pm


     Style: In Hiatus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by eyebeams
    * I'm vaguely suspicious of the drive-the-knee-into-the-ground DLT after seeing Din Thomas screw up his knee in the octagon.
    In a grappling situation on mats, dropping down to a knee is important, as it will let you drop levels more than your opponent, who is already in a pretty low stance.

    However, in a real life situation, all that you need to do is change levels, for a double-leg. Or you can even do a Royce Gracie style "double leg tackle" (for lack of better wording), which I've also seen done in judo and gi BJJ.

    As applied to a no-gi grappling situation, you don't need to hit a knee on the mat 100% of the time. One of my favorite takedowns, the snatch (which is an outside-step single-leg takedown, to anyone who doesn't know), can be done pretty easily w/o hitting a knee by just dropping levels.

    In Greco-Roman, there is a version of the double-leg (called a high double, where you grab your opponent's hips instead of his legs, since that's illegal) that doesn't require hitting a knee. That could be used.

    Also, in freestyle and American folkstyle, you can hit a double w/o hitting a knee if you are able to set it up enough (basically, you'd have to handfight with your opponent until they're in a more standing position and then shoot).

    In my experience, however, I've discovered single-legs w/o hitting a knee are much more easier to accomplish in a grappling situation than doubles w/o hitting a knee.

    But as stated earlier in this post, in a real life situation w/ someone in a standing position, all you need to do is drop levels and then go for a shot.

    EDIT: Here is an example of morote gari, or the judo/gi BJJ style double that I was talking about:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gU0D0IX6yk
    Last edited by krazy kaju; 10/20/2007 3:49pm at .
  8. Frank White is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/20/2007 3:47pm


     Style: chinese boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by danjo
    Most of the fights I've seen were won by the guy that got the first shot off and just kept hitting till the other guy was out.
    Truer words have never been spoken.
  9. danjo is offline
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    1st degree Black Belt in Kajukenbo Original Method

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    Posted On:
    10/20/2007 9:24pm

    supporting member
     Style: Kajukenbo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by KempoFist
    I was never a bouncer, but from what I've seen this is on the money. I did however see a bouncer do a beautiful double leg on some drunk and slam him on his head. He and another bouncer were heavily outnumbered, but they just cleaned house till the cops came.

    But I think that knowing how to throw a tight punch, with your chin protected out of habit is one of the most important things to learn whether you learn it in MMA, Boxing, Muay Thai, Kajukenbo, Kenpo, or whatever. This will definitely help you be that guy who connects first.
    Well, we mainly train to prevent the double leg takedown in our school rather than how to implement it against someone else. I remember when I started Gracie JJ at Ralph Gracie's academy. The first week I was there, he was KO'd with a knee as he attempted a double leg on his opponent. Not my favorite technique to employ as an opener.

    As was said before, takedown prevention and the ability to escape once taken down are far better than learning to submit someone in a real fight. If I get the chance to get back to my feet in a fight, I'm going to do that everytime rather than work for the armbar.
    "I'll Try To Be Nicer, If You'll Try To Be Smarter "

    "When You Are Standing on the Edge of a Cliff a Step Forward Is Not Progress "

    "Stonehenge, where the demons dwell, where the banshees live and they do it well..."
  10. variance is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/21/2007 1:23am


     Style: EF UM A

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by KempoFist


    Weapons
    What of them? They got a gun and a few feet of distance from you, and you're up shits creek. Give them what you got and hope they don't shoot you anyway. Though it is often stated that if they hold you up with a gun and demand something, they don't intend to actually kill you....otherwise they'd just kill you and take it off your dead body.

    Knives? The only knife in a fight is the one you don't see. If the guy gives you space and time to see the knife as he twirls it around and lunges at you, then you have enough time to run. More than likely, you will find yourself gutted open AFTER the fight is over, rather than doing some fanciful Kenpo knife disarm. Btw Kenpo knife disarms are of the most ridiculous load of crap I've ever seen....then again just about all disarms I've seen are crap, so that's not saying much. People do not lunge overhead, or over-commit with diving stabs for you to parry and deflect. They flip it out and stab you.

    As a side note, in regards to Grappling and Knives, in good grappling you are controlling your opponent entirely, completely aware of even the slightest movements and changes in position. If I'm fighting someone on the ground, and I don't know where his hand is, and allow him to draw a knife from his pocket and cut me, well I deserved to get cut.

    So I take it you haven't seen much in the way of FMA weapons training?
    or is this post limited to criticism of Kenpo exclusively? (From the context of the title it seems it is.)

    Agreed that most martial arts knife defense drills suck balls.


    Quote Originally Posted by KempoFist

    The Street
    Here is a list I made for my students back when I taught on the 3 stages of a REAL confrontation in the "Street" and what to expect there. Nearly any real life situation will fall into one of these 3 categories, sometimes skipping some, sometimes starting from the first and progressing to the last. It all depends on where and why you are in conflict with someone.

    To summarize, if you don't know how to strike and wrestle. you can't fight. End of story. If you win without that knowledge, then just consider yourself lucky for fighting such an unskilled or drunken assailant. I choose not to train for luck, I train the highest percentage techniques possible, to end the situation in my favor with as little damage done to me as possible.

    What do you do with your training?
    limed cuz I think high percentage kicks are of equal importance as good boxing skills.
    The average unskilled or semi-skilled person is gonna know how to box. Very few people know how to adaquately defend, much less expect a low kick to the thigh.


    Consequently,
    Your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter


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