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  1. Ke?poFist is offline
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    Enforcer of Northeast Anti-Silliness Department Inc.

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    Posted On:
    10/18/2007 12:26pm

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     Style: Kaju, BJJ, Judo, Kempo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Street and Sport (This is for you Pama)

    First of all yes, the temptation to shout "SEARCH FUCTION!" or simply to post past links of this beaten horse of a discussion comes to mind. But to be honest I don't think that is going to help in this situation, as the past few posts I've seen of our friend Pama, have been on the rather extreme end of the spectrum, and I doubt anything short of a new discussion is going to get any points across.


    MMA
    Now I would like to preface this with saying, I think MMA is the BEST thing to happen to martial arts since the jab. MMA is the most liberal ruleset we have legally available to test ourselves and our technique as martial artists. The early MMA days, had hardly any rules, leaving people free to scratch, hair pull, groin strike and whatever else, thus giving us a glimpse of seeing two trained people fight with those tactics at their disposal. Without it, we'd still be caught up in the mystique of "martial arts," and still be having the tired drawn out style vs style debates. (ie: Well, TKD has fast snapping kicks that move faster than the Muay Thai round kick, so the TKD guy would hit first and win!!!).

    There is the argument of MMA not being real ENOUGH nowadays, because of gloves, time limits, "tapping out" and of course the rules. In short the gloves protect the fighters hand and not the opponents face this quelling the argument that it helps grapplers. Time limits exist on the street too; just in the form of friends/bouncers/police jumping in. Tapping doesn't happen on the street, breaks and going unconscious does. And if you can't fight someone under as liberal rules as we have today, I don't know how you expect wristlocks, biting and finger-nail raking to save you.

    You hear the argument, "I'm not going to stand there and trade hands with someone in a street fight...I'm just going to take him out quick!" Really....so how? If he has good stand-up defense and a decent sprawl, what do you intend to do to finish it QUICK? Kick out his knee in fantastical form like many Kenpo schools teach? Claw his eyes out while he pounds your skull into paste because you exposed you chin? Break his wrist while standing, as he knees your groin and elbows your face? All of the "quick fix" nonsense Kenpo teaches is nothing but an exercise in self delusion.



    Percentages
    What you need to learn is "High Percentage" techniques. These are techniques that will work on anybody, no matter the size, no matter the skill. A technique that requires you to out-muscle someone is NOT high percentage, because all it takes is someone stronger than you to win the day.

    A standing wristlock is NOT high percentage. In order for it to work, it requires surprise and a bit of luck that it is not easily countered by stepping into you, and taking you to the ground or punching you in the face. You are not controlling the body thus putting yourself at risk. On the other hand, an armbar is high percentage, as you are controlling the body, and locking out a major joint that has a good chance of ending the fight if you go all the way with it.

    Most striking found in Kenpo is not high percentage, because it leaves the face exposed, and often is set up off of the assumption that the person will react in a prescribed way (ie: I punch him here, he moves here, so then I hit him here which makes him fall, then I do this....etc....). In real striking, you hit someone and they either go down, or they hit you back. They don't get stunned, and leave themselves open to 6-10 more shots to various spots with intricate hand striking positions. Again the assumption being made that you will be fighting an unskilled foe is not a wise one.



    Ground Grappling
    It is often said, (this past day by you in particular Pama) that it is "stupid to grapple on the street." Fair enough; I'd agree that in a crowded street fight, it's not the best idea to jump guard and try to work submissions. It's also equally stupid to not train grappling, because when the fight DOES hit the street, you are up shits creek.

    In self defense terms, I like to think of grappling as defensive rather than offensive. If I get taken down, I want to be able to get back to my feet in the most quick efficient manner. NOT training in BJJ or grappling does not help that goal. It just leaves me clueless on the ground, as I get my face pounded in (by one guy mind you, let alone the hypothetical dozen or so that will beat up the hypothetical BJJ guy that tries to take a fight to the ground). It is also handy to know how to take a person down, assuming they are beating you in the stand-up, rather than just stand there and get pummeled on your feet.



    Weapons
    What of them? They got a gun and a few feet of distance from you, and you're up shits creek. Give them what you got and hope they don't shoot you anyway. Though it is often stated that if they hold you up with a gun and demand something, they don't intend to actually kill you....otherwise they'd just kill you and take it off your dead body.

    Knives? The only knife in a fight is the one you don't see. If the guy gives you space and time to see the knife as he twirls it around and lunges at you, then you have enough time to run. More than likely, you will find yourself gutted open AFTER the fight is over, rather than doing some fanciful Kenpo knife disarm. Btw Kenpo knife disarms are of the most ridiculous load of crap I've ever seen....then again just about all disarms I've seen are crap, so that's not saying much. People do not lunge overhead, or over-commit with diving stabs for you to parry and deflect. They flip it out and stab you.

    As a side note, in regards to Grappling and Knives, in good grappling you are controlling your opponent entirely, completely aware of even the slightest movements and changes in position. If I'm fighting someone on the ground, and I don't know where his hand is, and allow him to draw a knife from his pocket and cut me, well I deserved to get cut.



    The Street
    Here is a list I made for my students back when I taught on the 3 stages of a REAL confrontation in the "Street" and what to expect there. Nearly any real life situation will fall into one of these 3 categories, sometimes skipping some, sometimes starting from the first and progressing to the last. It all depends on where and why you are in conflict with someone.

    Verbal: Argument that often leads up to the fight. Sometimes is a few words before someone goes in swinging, but still sometimes is enough for you to diffuse the situation with words rather than fists.

    Initiation: The first attack. It could be a shove, a haymaker, a tackle, a shoot, a jab. Usually (especially off of untrained people) this attack is a wild attempt to lay you out quick, so it will be powerful yet often telegraphed. Regardless though, especially off of grabs and such, basic JJJ and BJJ type locking techniques can be used to control the person before the fight really gets out of hand.

    Fight: This is where your attempts at stopping the first two steps failed and now you're both going at it with your fists up. I hope your "Self Defense" school taught you at least how to spar with medium contact, because here's where all that training you did (or didn't) have is gonna pay off.
    To summarize, if you don't know how to box and wrestle you can't fight. End of story. If you win without that knowledge, then just consider yourself lucky for fighting such an unskilled or drunken assailant. I choose not to train for luck, I train the highest percentage techniques possible, to end the situation in my favor with as little damage done to me as possible.

    What do you do with your training?
    Last edited by Ke?poFist; 10/18/2007 4:48pm at .
    Knowing is not enough, you must apply...
    ...Willing is not enough you must do
    ~Bruce Lee

  2. Ke?poFist is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/18/2007 12:55pm

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     Style: Kaju, BJJ, Judo, Kempo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    And of course, Luis Gutierrez's comments on the matter of dirty tactics vs clean technique.

    Street technique versus Sport Techniques or "Just add dirt" I can hear it now from all the street fighters... "But Luis, what about eye gauges, hair pulling, biting, ripping, pinching, scrotum striking, yanking and smashing, scratching, spitting, foaming at the mouth, growling, breaking bottles, wearing boots, colon control and crapping at will?" Well, what about all that? If you can't even hit a guy with a 16oz. glove how the hell are you going to eye jab him? If you can't keep a guy from putting you on the ground and proceeding to do his best rendition of River Dance on your cranium, how the hell are you going to just kick him in the balls or bite him? And if you indeed are getting punched, kicked, and out grappled by a superior martial artist and you get the bright idea to bite him, what's to stop him then from doing the same if not worse to you…and from a much better vantage point to boot? (Pun intended.) Bottom line…if you build a foundation on movement (timing and awareness in motion) and the attributes necessary to deliver and apply efficient strikes, controls and finishes, you just need to add the foul or dirty tactics. It doesn't work the other way around.
    "Be like water…then just add dirt."
    Knowing is not enough, you must apply...
    ...Willing is not enough you must do
    ~Bruce Lee

  3. krazy kaju is offline
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    I'm not witty enough for this custom title.

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    Posted On:
    10/18/2007 4:00pm


     Style: In Hiatus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by KempoFist
    Grappling
    It is often said, (this past day by you in particular Pama) that it is "stupid to grapple on the street." Fair enough; I'd agree that in a crowded street fight, it's not the best idea to jump guard and try to work submissions. It's also equally stupid to not train grappling, because when the fight DOES hit the street, you are up shits creek.

    In self defense terms, I like to think of grappling as defensive rather than offensive. If I get taken down, I want to be able to get back to my feet in the most quick efficient manner. NOT training in BJJ or grappling does not help that goal. It just leaves me clueless on the ground, as I get my face pounded in (by one guy mind you, let alone the hypothetical dozen or so that will beat up the hypothetical BJJ guy that tries to take a fight to the ground). It is also handy to know how to take a person down, assuming they are beating you in the stand-up, rather than just stand there and get pummeled on your feet.
    There's a difference between the terms 'groundfighting' and 'grappling'.

    Everybody seems to think that the two are exactly the same, while they're not. Groundfighting implies pulling guard, as you mentioned, and other different fighting methods 'on the ground'.

    Grappling, on the other hand, is made up of not only groundfighting but also stand-up. A good throw could easily knock somebody out, if not seriously injure them. Most martial arts school don't concentrate enough on effective throws, and this is where judo and wrestling schools come in...

    On a side note, groundfighting is also important as an OFFENSIVE tool in a fight. Say that you're fighting one opponent. Would it be better to beat the living **** out of your opponent, and risk getting in serious trouble with the law instead of pinning him with a joint lock and waiting for help (the po-po)? Or maybe even choking/strangling your opponent unconcious and running away quickly afterwards?

    Obviously, both sides of grappling (the stand-up/handfighting and the groundfighting) have something that's more than just valuble to add to ANYONES fighting abilities.

    Of course, I'm not discounting striking or weapon-specific training here either. All are important in self defense. But I'm saying that grappling is as important as these other two, if not slightly more, in self defense situations.
  4. Ke?poFist is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/18/2007 4:48pm

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     Style: Kaju, BJJ, Judo, Kempo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Duly noted, Krazy. I stand corrected. I should have phrased it "ground grappling."

    There is also the element of effectively striking while on the ground, rather than resorting to locks, and chokes.
    Knowing is not enough, you must apply...
    ...Willing is not enough you must do
    ~Bruce Lee

  5. krazy kaju is offline
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    I'm not witty enough for this custom title.

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    Posted On:
    10/18/2007 4:52pm


     Style: In Hiatus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    :-)

    Yeah, you're right about the strikes.

    However, I was referring to a situation where it wouldn't be necessary to beat the crap out of your opponent... LOL.

    But yeah...
  6. Milquetoast is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/18/2007 5:10pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Xingyi, Silat

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I really liked this post in a lot of ways, especially talking about high percentage moves, the need to train grappling, even if it's not your preference, and the general mentality of some people that denial is an effective form of self defense. I personally will leave any school if the instructor tells me that they have "everything" and that cross-training is unnecessary/bad. This is the only part I find any reason to disagree with....

    Quote Originally Posted by KempoFist
    As a side note, in regards to Grappling and Knives, in good grappling you are controlling your opponent entirely, completely aware of even the slightest movements and changes in position. If I'm fighting someone on the ground, and I don't know where his hand is, and allow him to draw a knife from his pocket and cut me, well I deserved to get cut.
    This I find to be untrue in my experience with grapplers, even the good ones. In fairness, it's also untrue of almost everyone I've every met in any style. I'm not bragging, it's been proven to me time and time again that I can't do it either. I've had a few high level instructors in silat who can deal with a practice blade consistently, but if you don't train it alive and with resistance, it's suprisingly easy to get a cut to possibly lethal areas (jugular, axilliary, femoral, ulnar/radial). Not trying to be a douche about it, but I think most MAists aren't ready for a competent guy with a blade. Phil Elmore is ready to pounce!
  7. Jadonblade is offline
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    Hoo Ha!

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    Posted On:
    10/18/2007 6:19pm

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     Style: San Da, Judo, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    My karate intructer had a great attitude to knife techniques. Reverse kick, while back is turned leg it the **** out of there. Even if you win, you wont even notice as you are cut enough to bleed to death.
  8. Christian_ is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/18/2007 7:03pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    KempoFist, keep it up, anybody who's honest with themselves knows that you're right.

    BTW: Ever since starting MMA (We do Kickboxing/Muay Thai, No-Gi BJJ, and Wrestling) I love grappling, and there's nothing like a nice double leg takedown.
  9. eyebeams is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/19/2007 4:19am


     Style: Kickboxing/Grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think there are some adjustments to be made. Examples:

    * I'm vaguely suspicious of the drive-the-knee-into-the-ground DLT after seeing Din Thomas screw up his knee in the octagon.

    * Probing jabs and ring rhythm/generalship lose a lot of relevance when somebody's just trying to go all out for under a minute.

    * I think there needs to be a bit more thought given to slams, specifically ways to counter them aside from cranking and holding as hard as possible.

    * Escalation/deescalation. Some "low percentage" things have worked pretty well for me in situations just short of full on fighting.

    Just little things like that. I think people are sometimes so defensive about the progress they've made away from wholly impractical things that they're reluctant to talk about these sorts of things.
  10. Ke?poFist is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/19/2007 12:06pm

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     Style: Kaju, BJJ, Judo, Kempo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by eyebeams
    I think there are some adjustments to be made. Examples:

    * I'm vaguely suspicious of the drive-the-knee-into-the-ground DLT after seeing Din Thomas screw up his knee in the octagon.
    Yes and no. Done "properly" you shouldn't be putting that kind of impact on your knee, but unfortunately in the heat of the moment, you don't always have time to use picture perfect technique, and may bang your knee.

    Here's a video ironically of a Ninjutsu school who trains very much "alive" and since they are crazy ninjas, they spar in the desert on rocks :) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Va4lT30qXw

    1:11 point, the guy uses a modified double leg that I use quite frequently, where you slip in and use your penetrating foot to post behind the leg. A bit easier on the knees IMO.

    * Probing jabs and ring rhythm/generalship lose a lot of relevance when somebody's just trying to go all out for under a minute.
    That's more a difference in necessary tactic than technique. The techniques you use remain the same, but depending on the kind of feedback you get from your opponent dictates your tactics. If he stands just outside the pocket and tries to trade with you, then yeah, distance with a jab and light him up. If he flies at you balls to the wall, then clinch, knee and slam him.

    * I think there needs to be a bit more thought given to slams, specifically ways to counter them aside from cranking and holding as hard as possible.
    Wrestlers and Judoka's have been working that for years. Whizzers, counters, escapes, reversals.
    Admittedly my own personal training only covers a fraction of this, the knowledge is there.

    * Escalation/deescalation. Some "low percentage" things have worked pretty well for me in situations just short of full on fighting.
    Read the "2nd stage" of a confrontation in my initial post.

    Just little things like that. I think people are sometimes so defensive about the progress they've made away from wholly impractical things that they're reluctant to talk about these sorts of things.
    I agree.
    Knowing is not enough, you must apply...
    ...Willing is not enough you must do
    ~Bruce Lee

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