More BJJ bullshido - The Gracie Combatives Licensing Program™

**jtkarate** · Posted On: 10/18/2007 9:21pm

Originally Posted by "Pandinha" aka Anthony

If this gets out of hand and they are giving out black belts in BJJ, I'd say this was getting out of hand, but with the Matt Furey advertising put aside, this has more positive than negative for any school that has ZERO grappling inhouse.

I will agree that it is a good thing for someone who wants to add grappling to their school.

But for somone to be able to move a student up to the rank that they technically have is utter crap.

Also doing this is going to create a whole wave of frauds saying they teach GJJ just because they got a pretty little certificate for their 80 hours of training.

So yes it does have pros to it but I believe that the cons will far outweigh them.

**ninjafetus** · Posted On: 10/18/2007 9:40pm

Since we pretty much don't know how the rank issues will work, I won't comment on it. But regarding the statement that, "this has more positive than negative for any school that has ZERO grappling inhouse," I would argue that it would depend on the quality of instruction. I would rather a school not grapple then grapple incorrectly. I shudder at the thought of the "arm bars" that the TTU self defense class was teaching; if any of those girls tried to use it, they'd just get themselves hurt.

**djchangster** · Posted On: 10/18/2007 11:42pm

I dont doubt it doesnt take long to learn 34 techniques...I skimmed thru the BJJ book, and know most od the moves off by heart

i could probably teach most kickboxing techniques within a day

but its Mcdojo nonetheless

**chingythingy** · Posted On: 10/19/2007 12:19am

This is simply Gracies marketing their Combatives program they developed for the Army to MA schools. There seems to be a little quality control in that they require instructors to evaluate and promote to blue belt.

However, this is diluting the blue belt level in most cases. There are a lot of stories of seminar promotions and other such stuff. There seems to be schools that promote to blue faster than others - some tougher schools it takes 2+ years, competitions, and a higher level. Others only 1 year.

I guess they get away with it a little more quality control at the purple level. But personally I wouldn't want to be one of those guys. White belts from a good school love to kick the **** out of them. I bet you get a lot of people like that that get to blue and quit. I think it's a lot better idea to be a little tougher at the blue belt.

But yeah - Gracie McBlueBelt.

**Askari** · Posted On: 10/19/2007 7:37am

Originally Posted by djchangster

I skimmed thru the BJJ book, and know most od the moves off by heart

Which BJJ book is this?

**Teh El Macho** · Posted On: 10/19/2007 8:40am

Originally Posted by djchangster

I dont doubt it doesnt take long to learn 34 techniques...I skimmed thru the BJJ book, and know most od the moves off by heart

Really? Can you execute them against a resisting sparring partner who's trying to do the same thing to you? Because that's the key to learning.

I know what a gogoplata looks like and what needs to be done to get it (sorta), but **** me that I'll ever gonna slap it on someone (unless he is in a comma.) Knowing what a technique is called, what it looks like and how its execution gets described in a book is not the same as knowing how to perform the technique under pressure.

That's the true test of knowledge. That the baseline. That's the minimum which is required to say "I know how to do this technique." This is where the concern is with the Gracies' program:

Is an 80-hour/2 week program a good vehicle for someone to learn these combative techniques with enough dept to qualify him for teaching it to others? Perhaps there are requirements imposed by the Gracies on potential students (I dunno, athletic ability, MA background, and so forth.)

A person with natural abilites and with a base on Judo or Wrestling may be able to pull it off compared to a boxer (no disrespect intended.)

I gotta disagree with you Upa regarding your point #1 (the 80 hour a week thing.) Two weeks is too short of a time frame - sparring will be severily limited. How often can these students possibly spar in 2 weeks? Overload and physical exhaustion will take its toll.

I suspect the ratio of drill time/mat time in those 80 hours will be much greater than what you'd see in 80 hours of training in a regular grappling school over a 10 month period (assuming 2 hours of training a week.)

Originally Posted by djchangster

but its Mcdojo nonetheless

No disagreement here, brother. But Mcdojoism by itself is not that bad provided that what's being taught is not bullshit.

**Kung-Fu Joe** · Posted On: 10/19/2007 8:56am

Originally Posted by Teh El Macho

Is an 80-hour/2 week program a good vehicle for someone to learn these combative techniques with enough dept to qualify him for teaching it to others?

I'm going to go ahead and say "No" to this.

However, I'll also argue that this class has a different purpose than that.

The Combatives course is not meant to be a replacement for good Jiu-Jitsu training. It's not even designed to be a thorough Jiu-Jitsu course. It seems to me the purpose of the course is solely to introduce a few basic concepts of grappling into other martial programs. I don't think the Combatives course is pretending to do anything besides teaching basic techniques.

Now, I'm extremely new to BJJ. I've had only four classes, so far, and a little bit of book knowledge before that. Until last night, I did not know the proper technique for attacking a resisting opponent with either a triangle or an armbar from my guard. And yet, while rolling with other guys-- fully resisting opponents-- that have little or no knowledge of Jiu-Jitsu, I've been able to apply armbars, triangles, Kimuras, Americanas, and a host of other techniques that I've only seen in books.

In my opinion, the Combatives course isn't supposed to even the ground between a Grappler and a non-Grappler. It's supposed to give a non-Grappler a bit of an advantage over another non-Grappler.

--Joe

**Askari** · Posted On: 10/19/2007 9:48am

Originally Posted by Kung-Fu Joe

In my opinion, the Combatives course isn't supposed to even the ground between a Grappler and a non-Grappler. It's supposed to give a non-Grappler a bit of an advantage over another non-Grappler.

There giving out a blue belt.

:director2

A blue belt - from a hard knox club - is usually at a bit more then just a slight advantage over a non-grappler.

**Kung-Fu Joe** · Posted On: 10/19/2007 10:18am

Originally Posted by Askari

There giving out a blue belt.

:director2

A blue belt - from a hard knox club - is usually at a bit more then just a slight advantage over a non-grappler.

No, they're giving out a "technical" blue belt. Now, I'll grant you that the distinction asbolutely wreaks of McDojo, but it's a distinction nonetheless. The instructor can then promote up to a fourth degree white belt. Well, whoop-dee-doo! Honestly, what the hell does that mean? Especially when a legit Gracie instructor is required for any actual promotion. Certainly McDojo tactics-- making people feel like they're advancing so they have better morale-- but it's not THAT terrible.

To reiterate a point that others have made, it would be different if they were combining McDojo advertising with bogus technique. But these aren't Dim Mak strikes and ki blasts. Honestly, I'd say this whole program is still about a million times better than, say, your average YMCA/YWCA self-defense class.

--Joe

**Askari** · Posted On: 10/19/2007 10:24am

Originally Posted by Kung-Fu Joe

No, they're giving out a "technical" blue belt.

Potato, Potatoe.

Do you actually think this guy is going to tell people he is 'technically' a blue belt in Gracie Jiu-Jitsu, or is he going to put the certificate on the wall, wear a blue belt at the BJJ seminar and tell people he has his blue belt?