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  1. Team Python is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/27/2011 11:12pm


     Style: BJJ, Libre, Street Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Punisher View Post
    I for on am glad the Gracies have some sort of formal instructor training program. Just because you can DO BJJ, or any other martial art, it doesn't mean you can TEACH BJJ. I've had plenty of shitty instructors, who didn't know the first thing about how to organize a curriculum, structure a class, or teach a technique.

    Can anyone point out it me any other place that offers specific courses in how to TEACH martial arts, separate and distinct for how to perform them?
    I have never come across any so far other than the Gracie Academy......I give them credit for that for sure......once I get my finances squared away I plan to do some privates at the academy....I had set up a private with Ralek but I had to cancel it.....I plan to schedule another date so I can have him go over my self defense techniques and make sure I have everything squared away.
  2. slideyfoot is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/28/2011 4:23am

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     Artemis BJJ | Brazilian Jiu Jitsu in Bristol Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Punisher View Post
    I for on am glad the Gracies have some sort of formal instructor training program. Just because you can DO BJJ, or any other martial art, it doesn't mean you can TEACH BJJ.
    That's true, and it is good to have some kind of standardisation in place, which could counteract a general problem in martial arts and self defence: anyone can throw on a black belt, make up a martial art, fabricate years of street fighting and tournament victories, then open up a school. That doesn't look like it will be possible with this Instructor Certification Program.

    The main concern is whether or not is it really possible to take somebody with no prior teaching experience, run them through an online program, and produce a capable instructor after meeting them in person for two days. I see according to the last lesson mentioned on the website that you are supposed to submit five videos: I'm hoping at least one of those will be of you teaching a class. It will be good to hear from someone who has gone through the program: are you intending to enrol, Punisher?

    Lesson 52: Video Evaluation Guidelines
    Ryron and Rener provide detailed specifications for each of the five videos that you will need to upload in order to be considered for advancement to the live evaluation at the Gracie Academy Headquarters in Torrance, CA.
    I'm a lot more comfortable with the process I've seen in the past (e.g., at the Roger Gracie Academy), which is that you start by helping out teach classes (often beginning with kids), then move on to assistant instructor, eventually taking beginner classes, then as you progress up the belts, you teach more advanced students. That process normally takes many years, with a black belt present to see what you're doing before they give their blessing for you to teach on your own. However, that does lack standardisation, and will most likely vary from school to school.

    The Gracie ICP has only just been launched, so I'm willing to accept the possibility that the online training is so well done that a two day evaluation will be enough for quality control. It makes me uncomfortable given that it seems like such a brief period for evaluating somebody (not just teaching ability, but their character too, a point sensibly made by Helio when he spoke about "someone with the morals I expect to become an instructor"), but as ever, we'll have to wait and see.

    I've had plenty of shitty instructors, who didn't know the first thing about how to organize a curriculum, structure a class, or teach a technique.
    Fair enough, but having trained at eight different schools so far, I've had many excellent instructors with a refined approach to organising a curriculum and teaching.

    That isn't unusual: for example, Gracie Barra has a clear approach in place with their Gracie Barra Fundamentals syllabus, and I believe Alliance is producing something similar. Draculino is known for his structured curriculums: indeed, this is something Romulo Barral pointed out when I asked him:

    Quote Originally Posted by Romulo Barral
    You know, a lot of places, they still don’t have a curriculum. My place, Draculino’s place, we always have a curriculum. You cannot go to the class, drive your car, and then think “oh, what am I going to show today? I’m going to show spider guard today.” Then the next day, you drive again, “what am I going to show today? Today, I’m going to show mount attack.” It’s very important you break down the curriculum, so you can work all the types of game. For example, let’s work for two months on spider guard, maybe spider guard sweeps, spider guard attacks.

    I think that is the best way for people to learn and develop their own game, so you can teach everything, not focus on one thing. You’ve got to have a curriculum for both parts.
    This is something I've also seen repeatedly in my own training. Gracie Barra Birmingham will run through a small group of techniques for a month before progressing to the next group. My current school, Roger Gracie Buckinghamshire, will have a specific position each week (which I think is also the case for another school I regularly attend, Gracie Barra Bristol).

    All three of those also split the classes into Beginner and Advanced. Then there is Felipe Souza at BJJ School, where all the instructors of the various affiliates meet to plan the next set of lessons.

    Can anyone point out it me any other place that offers specific courses in how to TEACH martial arts, separate and distinct for how to perform them?
    Yes: the aforementioned Gracie Barra and Alliance, along with places like USA Jiu Jitsu. However, I'm not sure if they have a clearly listed structure like the Gracie Academy, which would be interesting to see.
  3. judoka_uk is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/28/2011 10:55am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Punisher View Post
    Can anyone point out it me any other place that offers specific courses in how to TEACH martial arts, separate and distinct for how to perform them?
    France.

    All instructors for Judo, and other sports, must possess the brevet d'état d'éducateur sportif - state licence for teaching sport. If you teach Judo without this your club is illegal and the police and the courts will shut you down!

    For Judo the entry requirements to commence the course are:
    -Over 18
    -Certified first aider
    - 2nd dan or above
    - Have passed the admission test

    The panel for the admission test is composed of:
    -a representative of the department of sports, head of the panel
    -a representative of the Judo federation
    -one or more teacher, who already holds the "state license"

    The admission test consists of:

    -an essay about judo (1 hour)
    -an interview with the panel (20 minutes)
    -4 technical examinations including:
    Demonstration of several randomly nage waza
    Demonstration of several randomly ne waza
    Nage no Kata
    Randori

    If they meet all the criteria, then the candidate embarks on a yearlong study programme made up of a common and a sport specific course.

    The common course:

    The sport's ministry oversees this section.

    The common course includes:
    - Biology & anatomy (70 hours)
    -Pedagogy (70 hours)
    -Laws and regulations about sport and sporting spirit (60 hours)

    Sport specific course:

    The French federation of Judo (FFJDA) oversees the teaching and testing of this section.

    People studying Judo at sports universities are prepared for the state licence exam as part of their university course. A significant number of Judo teachers in France will have gone through sports universities.

    There are also regional centres for sports education, which are ‘franchises’ of the sport department, who prepare candidates for the exam.

    The specific Judo courses include:
    -Judo regulations and refereeing (100 hours), includes practical sessions
    -Teaching Judo yo kids (240 hours)
    - Teaching Judo for adults (270 hours)
    -Teaching Judo for special needs (120 hours);
    -Placement period in a club (270 hours)


    Throughout these courses, candidates are also supposed to revise all Judo techniques, plus Nage no kata, Katame no kata, Goshin jitsu no kata and Kime no kata.

    The total length of the course is 1200 hours.

    Teachers of the candidates are at least 4th dan, generally 5th dan

    The panel of the final exam is composed of the same people as the admission test i.e government rep, NGB rep and qualified teacher.

    The final test includes:
    -A technical exam: demonstration of waza, kata and self defence.
    -Oral exam: one technical question and one pedagogical question
    -Pedagogical exam: the panel give the candidate a theme for a judo session; the candidate prepare a lesson plan for the session, submits it to the panel, who ask him to demonstrate one aspect of his session.

    If they succeed, they are awarded the "state license level 1" there’s also a state licence level 2 that is required to teach elite athletes.

    All that just to open a club and people wonder why the state of Judo is so poor in America and the UK compared to places like France.
    Last edited by judoka_uk; 2/28/2011 10:58am at . Reason: fixing cock ups
  4. chingythingy is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/01/2011 7:57pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Punisher View Post
    I for on am glad the Gracies have some sort of formal instructor training program. Just because you can DO BJJ, or any other martial art, it doesn't mean you can TEACH BJJ. I've had plenty of shitty instructors, who didn't know the first thing about how to organize a curriculum, structure a class, or teach a technique.

    Can anyone point out it me any other place that offers specific courses in how to TEACH martial arts, separate and distinct for how to perform them?
    Yes. Roy Harris instructor training programs do this.
  5. Jim_Jude is offline
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    Shime Waza Test Dummy

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    Posted On:
    3/01/2011 8:23pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: StrikeyGrappling & WW2-fu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by slideyfoot View Post
    You mean Rener and Ryron, presumably, Rorion's sons? Royler and Renzo are from Rorion's generation. This is Ryron and Rener, from the DVD set cover: not obvious from the picture, but they're both much bigger than Renzo and Royler:





    While this is Renzo and Royler, from the cover of their book, Theory & Technique:



    Renzo in particular does not think much of Gracie Combatives.
    I just read this:
    Renzo Gracie: ...now that you mention, I had a very strange experience this past week. One of my students, he actually went to California, and he ask me where he should train. I say, “the Gracie Academy,” because that was the closest place to where he was going. I sent him to Rorion’s Academy, the one in Torrance. He goes in, and they told him that he shouldn’t train there, because that place was the “real jiu jitsu place.” It was like they were saying he doesn’t know jiu jitsu, and is learning from a source that doesn’t know how to teach.
    You know what happened, my friend: I see a lot of people now, especially my family, saying that. “Oh, I know the real jiu jitsu, you don’t know the real jiu jitsu.”
    We all learn from the same place, we all develop the same art together, growing up. But for some reason, once they jump in a plane and they move to America they try to sell a product, like the American people are a bunch of fools. Right now, I became American, and I know there are no fools here...
    So in the Gracie family, they can't even make up their mind if they're all teaching "the real jiu-jitsu"????? If they can't even agree on whose BJJ/GJJ/whatever is "the real", then who the hell cares? Train with who you want, go out & get skills that you value.
    If they wanted to keep a monopoly on "the real", they should have just kept winning fights & shouldn't have bothered trying to get rich off of opening academies & grossly overcharging.
    "Judo is a study of techniques with which you may kill if you wish to kill, injure if you wish to injure, subdue if you wish to subdue, and, when attacked, defend yourself" - Jigoro Kano (1889)
    ***Was this quote "taken out of context"?***

    "The judoist has no time to allow himself a margin for error, especially in a situation upon which his or another person's very life depends...."
    ~ The Secret of Judo (Jiichi Watanabe & Lindy Avakian), p.19

    "Hope is not a method... nor is enthusiasm."
    ~ Brigadier General Gordon Toney
  6. Jim_Jude is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/01/2011 8:38pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: StrikeyGrappling & WW2-fu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Punisher View Post
    Can anyone point out it me any other place that offers specific courses in how to TEACH martial arts, separate and distinct for how to perform them?
    I fairly sure that both France & Germany are much more strict on martial arts instructors, not like the US where all you need to open a school is a business license....
    "Judo is a study of techniques with which you may kill if you wish to kill, injure if you wish to injure, subdue if you wish to subdue, and, when attacked, defend yourself" - Jigoro Kano (1889)
    ***Was this quote "taken out of context"?***

    "The judoist has no time to allow himself a margin for error, especially in a situation upon which his or another person's very life depends...."
    ~ The Secret of Judo (Jiichi Watanabe & Lindy Avakian), p.19

    "Hope is not a method... nor is enthusiasm."
    ~ Brigadier General Gordon Toney
  7. datdamnmachine is offline
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    Jiu Jitsu - Sometimes passing just isn't an option.

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    Posted On:
    3/02/2011 12:11pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ, Unauthorized Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by slideyfoot View Post
    That's true, and it is good to have some kind of standardisation in place, which could counteract a general problem in martial arts and self defence: anyone can throw on a black belt, make up a martial art, fabricate years of street fighting and tournament victories, then open up a school. That doesn't look like it will be possible with this Instructor Certification Program.

    The main concern is whether or not is it really possible to take somebody with no prior teaching experience, run them through an online program, and produce a capable instructor after meeting them in person for two days. I see according to the last lesson mentioned on the website that you are supposed to submit five videos: I'm hoping at least one of those will be of you teaching a class. It will be good to hear from someone who has gone through the program: are you intending to enrol, Punisher?

    I'm a lot more comfortable with the process I've seen in the past (e.g., at the Roger Gracie Academy), which is that you start by helping out teach classes (often beginning with kids), then move on to assistant instructor, eventually taking beginner classes, then as you progress up the belts, you teach more advanced students. That process normally takes many years, with a black belt present to see what you're doing before they give their blessing for you to teach on your own. However, that does lack standardisation, and will most likely vary from school to school.

    The Gracie ICP has only just been launched, so I'm willing to accept the possibility that the online training is so well done that a two day evaluation will be enough for quality control. It makes me uncomfortable given that it seems like such a brief period for evaluating somebody (not just teaching ability, but their character too, a point sensibly made by Helio when he spoke about "someone with the morals I expect to become an instructor"), but as ever, we'll have to wait and see.

    Fair enough, but having trained at eight different schools so far, I've had many excellent instructors with a refined approach to organising a curriculum and teaching.

    That isn't unusual: for example, Gracie Barra has a clear approach in place with their Gracie Barra Fundamentals syllabus, and I believe Alliance is producing something similar. Draculino is known for his structured curriculums: indeed, this is something Romulo Barral pointed out when I asked him:



    This is something I've also seen repeatedly in my own training. Gracie Barra Birmingham will run through a small group of techniques for a month before progressing to the next group. My current school, Roger Gracie Buckinghamshire, will have a specific position each week (which I think is also the case for another school I regularly attend, Gracie Barra Bristol).

    All three of those also split the classes into Beginner and Advanced. Then there is Felipe Souza at BJJ School, where all the instructors of the various affiliates meet to plan the next set of lessons.

    Yes: the aforementioned Gracie Barra and Alliance, along with places like USA Jiu Jitsu. However, I'm not sure if they have a clearly listed structure like the Gracie Academy, which would be interesting to see.
    Personally, although I think a curriculum can be a good thing, one thing that makes BJJ, well, BJJ is how individual it is. Everyone will develop differently based on their own preferences, experiences, tastes, body type, attributes, etc. With that being said, having a "hard" technique based curriculum can be a negative as it rewards those who can essentially "know the test" as opposed to knowing the material. It can sometimes punish those who "know the material" but may not know the test.

    As long as the curriculum isn't some hard, set in stone, non-flexible standard, that allow students to grow and develop in their own way then it's a good thing. If it's "know this technique for your blue belt, know that technique for your purple belt" then there will be problems. Hell, even I didn't start getting serviceable at the scissors sweep until I was a around Purple belt. It's not so much what you know, but knowing how to apply what you know that counts, in my opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_Jude View Post
    I just read this:

    So in the Gracie family, they can't even make up their mind if they're all teaching "the real jiu-jitsu"????? If they can't even agree on whose BJJ/GJJ/whatever is "the real", then who the hell cares? Train with who you want, go out & get skills that you value.
    If they wanted to keep a monopoly on "the real", they should have just kept winning fights & shouldn't have bothered trying to get rich off of opening academies & grossly overcharging.
    Well, I've said this a million times and I'm sure it has been said a million times. This is basically what other martial arts started doing when more affective forms of combat sports started gaining prominence. It's the whole "we train for self defense/the street". It's essentially just a way to pray on people's fear of getting into a self defense confrontation. By doing so, you are able to heard people in your direction by making them feel like you are providing them something additional that will protect their lives that the "sport fighters/styles/schools" can't.
  8. Punisher is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/03/2011 12:15am

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     Style: Five Animal Fighting

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    Quote Originally Posted by datdamnmachine View Post
    Well, I've said this a million times and I'm sure it has been said a million times. This is basically what other martial arts started doing when more affective forms of combat sports started gaining prominence. It's the whole "we train for self defense/the street". It's essentially just a way to pray on people's fear of getting into a self defense confrontation. By doing so, you are able to heard people in your direction by making them feel like you are providing them something additional that will protect their lives that the "sport fighters/styles/schools" can't.
    The Gracie Combatives program does contain stuff that most sport BJJ schools don't, how to defend punches.
  9. Punisher is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/03/2011 12:19am

    supporting member
     Style: Five Animal Fighting

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by slideyfoot View Post
    That's true, and it is good to have some kind of standardisation in place, which could counteract a general problem in martial arts and self defence: anyone can throw on a black belt, make up a martial art, fabricate years of street fighting and tournament victories, then open up a school. That doesn't look like it will be possible with this Instructor Certification Program.

    The main concern is whether or not is it really possible to take somebody with no prior teaching experience, run them through an online program, and produce a capable instructor after meeting them in person for two days. I see according to the last lesson mentioned on the website that you are supposed to submit five videos: I'm hoping at least one of those will be of you teaching a class. It will be good to hear from someone who has gone through the program: are you intending to enrol, Punisher?

    I'm a lot more comfortable with the process I've seen in the past (e.g., at the Roger Gracie Academy), which is that you start by helping out teach classes (often beginning with kids), then move on to assistant instructor, eventually taking beginner classes, then as you progress up the belts, you teach more advanced students. That process normally takes many years, with a black belt present to see what you're doing before they give their blessing for you to teach on your own. However, that does lack standardisation, and will most likely vary from school to school.

    The Gracie ICP has only just been launched, so I'm willing to accept the possibility that the online training is so well done that a two day evaluation will be enough for quality control. It makes me uncomfortable given that it seems like such a brief period for evaluating somebody (not just teaching ability, but their character too, a point sensibly made by Helio when he spoke about "someone with the morals I expect to become an instructor"), but as ever, we'll have to wait and see.

    Fair enough, but having trained at eight different schools so far, I've had many excellent instructors with a refined approach to organising a curriculum and teaching.

    That isn't unusual: for example, Gracie Barra has a clear approach in place with their Gracie Barra Fundamentals syllabus, and I believe Alliance is producing something similar. Draculino is known for his structured curriculums: indeed, this is something Romulo Barral pointed out when I asked him:



    This is something I've also seen repeatedly in my own training. Gracie Barra Birmingham will run through a small group of techniques for a month before progressing to the next group. My current school, Roger Gracie Buckinghamshire, will have a specific position each week (which I think is also the case for another school I regularly attend, Gracie Barra Bristol).

    All three of those also split the classes into Beginner and Advanced. Then there is Felipe Souza at BJJ School, where all the instructors of the various affiliates meet to plan the next set of lessons.

    Yes: the aforementioned Gracie Barra and Alliance, along with places like USA Jiu Jitsu. However, I'm not sure if they have a clearly listed structure like the Gracie Academy, which would be interesting to see.
    I don't intend to enroll. As I've said before, I love Gracie Combatives, but pretty much despise the Graices. I don't really care about being a official GJJ Blue Belt or a Level I Certifired Instructor/Training Center.

    If the classes were on DVD I might buy them to add to my collection to see if I can pick up any teaching techniques. As far as I can tell the Gracie's know how to structure a class and curriculm. I don't see if someone followed the formula how the could go wrong.
  10. CrackFox is offline
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    You have to work the look.

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    Posted On:
    3/03/2011 3:12am

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     Style: Judo, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Punisher View Post
    I don't see if someone followed the formula how the could go wrong.
    Because the formula doesn't include rolling or competition, and there is no one who knows what they're doing to supervise it.

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