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  1. Team Python is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/19/2010 1:50am


     Style: BJJ, Libre, Street Boxing

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by mcjon View Post
    First, I just wanted to say that I love your blog. :)

    As you mentioned in the later part of your post, the inclusion of punches is a key issue. Specifically, how does one close the distance and achieve the clinch, while minimizing the chances of being knocked out? The combatives course (as do several of the other self defense focused BJJ schools) has methods that address this issue.

    A second area that a more SD focused BJJ school addresses that perhaps an exclusively sport focused BJJ school doesn't are standing grappling attacks, such as standing headlocks, bearhugs, standing RNCs and front chokes, etc. While some folks might not thing that those attacks are "realistic" in a real street scenario, I know for a fact that they are. On multiple occasions (usually in bars) I have seen some guy either headlocking or doing a front choke on another guy.

    In one of the countries I regularly travel to, a guy was committing a series of strong-arm robberies against tourists by simply walking up behind them and putting an RNC on them. I know a gentleman that was the victim of this. He tried fighting back, but had no idea how to get out of it. The next thing he knows, he is waking up on the sidewalk a few minutes later, without his wallet, watch, and passport.

    A third area that a more SD focused school will address are at least SOME techniques that can be employed that do not REQUIRE the defender to go to the ground with the attacker. While Gracie combatives has one technique for this (standing armbar) IIRC, the Gracie Barra fundamentals does a better job with multiple techniques to address this, my favorite being a simple hip throw.



    I think what many BJJ instructors are beginning to realize (something that most other martial arts instructors have known for decades) is that folks like yourself don't make up the majority of the potential customer base. SOME bjj schools seem to market themselves to three groups:
    1)Those entering MMA
    2)Those who want to compete in BJJ/submission wrestling tournaments
    3)Those looking to get in shape

    Whereas, I would be willing to bet that the MAJORITY of people interested in taking a martial art are among these two groups:
    1) Self Defense
    2) Those looking to get in shape

    A martial arts school that ignores the self-defense market is missing out on a HUGE market. If you are the only BJJ school in town, you can probably get away with ignoring self defense. However, in my city and the surrounding suburbs there are probably over 20 places offering BJJ programs, many (most?) with black belt instructors. Someone opening up a school has got to carve out a niche for themselves.
    I agree with your statements and good response
  2. slideyfoot is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/19/2010 5:25am

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     Artemis BJJ | Brazilian Jiu Jitsu in Bristol Style: BJJ

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    Quote Originally Posted by ghummel View Post
    Combatives and Gracie Jiu Jitsu don't belong in the same sentence. It's a good marketing strategy, but when I watched the end of the first disc (I borrowed them from a friend) and Royler and Renzo suggested asking a group of attackers to fight them one on one I almost lost my fucking mind.
    You mean Rener and Ryron, presumably, Rorion's sons? Royler and Renzo are from Rorion's generation. This is Ryron and Rener, from the DVD set cover: not obvious from the picture, but they're both much bigger than Renzo and Royler:





    While this is Renzo and Royler, from the cover of their book, Theory & Technique:



    Renzo in particular does not think much of Gracie Combatives.
  3. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/19/2010 2:59pm

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     Style: xingyi

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    Last edited by It is Fake; 11/19/2010 3:04pm at .
  4. RaiderFunk is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/19/2010 3:17pm


     Style: BJJ

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    Quote Originally Posted by slideyfoot View Post
    You mean Rener and Ryron, presumably, Rorion's sons? Royler and Renzo are from Rorion's generation. This is Ryron and Rener, from the DVD set cover: not obvious from the picture, but they're both much bigger than Renzo and Royler:





    While this is Renzo and Royler, from the cover of their book, Theory & Technique:



    Renzo in particular does not think much of Gracie Combatives.
    Oh ****! renzo is going in! Wow...I need to write dude a love letter!!!

    I see this crap today, “this is the real jiu jitsu”…let me be honest, I see jiu jitsu now turning into Krav Maga. Turn into kung fu! Like they are selling things that will chop your head in half, with a karate chop.
  5. gonzomalan is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/13/2010 8:00pm


     

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    Again, i find myself joining the party late.

    As has been mentioned earlier in the thread, and I've outlined here, the Gracie Combatives Licensing Program has been supplanted by the Instructor Certification program. This being the case, I believe this thread should either be closed, or re-focused on that specific program. I personally was hoping to get some replies to what I posted in the GU thread, as I feel that's more related to the main points of debate in the recent points of this thread. I'll be posting something there shortly.
  6. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/13/2010 8:23pm

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    We rarely close threads.

    This still gets discussed so, it will remain open.
  7. gonzomalan is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/13/2010 9:52pm


     

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    Noted and noted.
  8. slideyfoot is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/25/2011 10:54am

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    Quote Originally Posted by slideyfoot View Post
    For tl;dr - the Gracie Combatives Licensing Program (2007) and the Gracie Combatives DVDs (2009) are two different things. As far as I can tell, the Gracie Combatives Licensing Program has been replaced by the Instructor Certification Program.
    That Instructor Certification Program has now also changed, according to the latest Gracie Insider email, and it is a very interesting development, particularly in the context of the debates that have been going on in this forum. I'm not sure if this deserves its own thread, or if indeed it has already been discussed elsewhere on the forum: I couldn't see it, but I may have missed the link.

    As far as I can tell, it would now appear that you can become a certified instructor of Gracie Jiu Jitsu almost entirely online, bar a two day visit to the academy in Torrance:

    Quote Originally Posted by Gracie Insider, email from 23rd February
    The New Instructor Certification Program
    The complete system is now available to all dedicated GJJ students


    For three generations, the primary mission of the Gracie Family has been to make the invaluable benefits of Gracie Jiu-Jitsu available to people everywhere. To accomplish this, we created the Gracie Academy Instructor Certification Program (ICP). Although the original ICP enabled us to certify several instructors around the world to teach Gracie Jiu-Jitsu according to the exacting standards of the Gracie Academy, the structure of the original program and the costs associated with certification restricted many potential instructors from participating.

    What’s New About the ICP?
    After several years of research, planning, and curriculum development, we have completely restructured the Gracie Academy ICP so that it’s accessible to anyone who’s ever dreamt of teaching Gracie Jiu-Jitsu! Although the new certification process is more demanding than its original counterpart, its revolutionary format truly gives any dedicated practitioner of GJJ the opportunity to acquire the skills, learn a proven teaching system, and pursue the dream of becoming a Certified Gracie Jiu-Jitsu Instructor. Here are some of the notable changes in the new Instructor Certification Program.

    • Anyone Can Participate: In the past, you had to be a martial arts instructor to participate in the ICP. But now, we have opened the ICP to include all dedicated practitioners who pass the blue belt test, with a score of 90 or greater, and meet the four basic qualification requirements. It is important to note that although we are committed to making the ICP accessible to more people, participation in the ICP does not guarantee certification. The program is very demanding and the standards for certification are very high.


    • Online Instructor Training: To make the ICP accessible to more people, we digitally recorded all the instructor certification lessons, lectures, drills, and demonstrations, and have made all 52 instructor training videos available online through www.GracieUniversity.com. As a result, ICP course participants can become familiar with all the teaching methodologies from their homes, at their own pace. Upon successfully completing and passing the online ICP course (usually takes about 30-60 days), the participant will be invited to California to have all their skills tested in person during a 2-day live evaluation.


    • 3 Ways to Establish a Certified Training Center (CTC): In the original ICP, you had to own a martial arts school to qualify to participate. We realized, however, that many dedicated practitioners don’t currently own a school, but would love to open one upon getting certified. In the new ICP, anyone can participate, even if they don’t own a school, and upon getting certified, the instructor has the option to establish a CTC in one of three ways: 1) certify their own pre-existing school, 2) open a brand new school, or 3) partner with an existing martial arts school to offer the Gracie programs.

    Get Certified to Teach Gracie Combatives® and Gracie Bullyproof®
    There are four levels of certification at which an instructor can be recognized to teach Gracie Jiu-Jitsu. To be eligible for the Level 1 Instructor Certification Program, the only technical requirement is that the prospective instructor perfect the Gracie Combatives techniques and demonstrate their proficiency by passing the blue belt test with a score of 90 or greater. Upon successful Level 1 Certification, the instructor will be authorized to establish a CTC and teach Gracie Combatives and Gracie Bullyproof. As they continue to sharpen their own skills, as a teacher and student of the art, they will be considered for higher levels of certification which will qualify them to teach additional segments of the Gracie Academy curriculum such as the Master Cycle® and the Women Empowered® programs.

    10% Off for the First 100 Instructors

    Many people around the world have been waiting for quality Gracie Jiu-Jitsu instruction ever since UFC 1. To ensure that prospective students don't wait any longer than they have to, we are offering a 10% discount on the ICP tuition to the first 100 qualified candidates. If you've scored 90 or greater on the Blue Belt Qualification Test and you are interested in getting certified, don't wait, over 30 of these spots have already been taken.

    Reserve Your Territory
    There are many benefits to establishing a CTC. Among them is the opportunity to establish an exclusive territory in which only your school will be authorized to teach the proprietary Gracie Academy training programs. If you have a CTC location in mind, and there isn't already a CTC located within five miles of the prospective location, you will have the opportunity to temporarily reserve your territory as soon as you get accepted into the Instructor Certification Program. If you successfully complete the ICP and establish the CTC, your territory will go on full reserve. If you do fail to complete the ICP successfully, the territory will be released for the next qualified candidate.
    I would be very interested to watch those 52 lessons (there is a brief description of each one up on the main site), so it will be fascinating to see how this affects the development of Gracie Jiu Jitsu. As with Gracie Combatives, it means that Helio's attack on Carlson Jr's program from many years ago looks increasingly difficult to support. Here he is on Gracie Jiu Jitsu Advanced, back in 1998:

    Quote Originally Posted by Helio Gracie interviewed in 1998
    Didn't you see Carlson's son is selling a certificate in the United States? To anyone who buys four or five of his tapes, he'll give a certificate as an instructor. What else do you want? Is there a bigger con artist than this? [...]

    This kind of dishonesty I do not approve of. I already elected Rorion my representative in all areas, not only because he's my oldest son, but because he is the one who is more dedicated to jiu jitsu for what jiu jitsu is and the way I like it. [...]

    Lets not confuse the student with those presumptuous ones who want to become teachers, because my own sons, who were born with me and since three years old have been doing jiu jitsu, only got their certificates after practicing their teaching skill for ten years.

    Now an individual comes by my academy and spends five or six months or a year, and then leaves calling himself a jiu jitsu teacher. There's no way. Because for me, the instructor skill is not the learning of the movements, its in the philosophy behind the movements. In Brazil, unfortunately, it is very difficult to find someone with the morals I expect to become an instructor at my academy. That's the problem.
    Apparently now those morals can be evaluated in a mere two days, and the teaching skill only requires a Gracie Combatives blue belt and a further 52 online lessons, rather than ten years of hands-on practice as a teacher of jiu jitsu. The (very brief) video of Helio on that Gracie Insider email contains the following message from the man himself:

    Quote Originally Posted by Helio Gracie, on the new instructor online program
    I approve the new method through which people all over the world will be able to learn Gracie Jiu Jitsu.
    Of course, as that was recorded in 2009, there is something of a disconnect, and he doesn't say anything about it being a wonderful thing that people can now become instructors almost entirely over the internet.

    Presumably the argument is that these are only entry-level instructors, and they are only teaching beginners. Still, it is a potentially worrying development, but then I haven't seen the material, and they've only just announced the program. Hopefully it won't turn out to be as ripe for abuse as it appears to be on a first look.
  9. chingythingy is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/27/2011 7:13pm


     Style: BJJ

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    Quote Originally Posted by slideyfoot View Post
    Presumably the argument is that these are only entry-level instructors, and they are only teaching beginners. Still, it is a potentially worrying development, but then I haven't seen the material, and they've only just announced the program. Hopefully it won't turn out to be as ripe for abuse as it appears to be on a first look.
    Sure there is plenty of potential for worrying developments. They are the same worrying potential that exists for all affiliates of known BJJ entities. There is a certain level of "hiding out" under an affiliate's name that is possible while an instructor takes market share from legitimate black belt instructors and uses that as a cover while developing his own skills.

    At this point with the Gracies their only advanced level endorsed schools besides Torrance are the Valente's. And nobody is questioning whether they are legit or not.

    We will just have to see how this develops and hopefully trust that Rener and Ryron will have enough integrety not to let it get out of control - they do have seminar travel in place and evaluations in Torrance to help out with that.

    But just like any other affiliate program it is the responsibility of the organization to maintain the quality of their affiliates. There are plenty of known issues around doing so, and dirty laundry regarding this all over BJJ.
  10. Punisher is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/27/2011 9:57pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I for on am glad the Gracies have some sort of formal instructor training program. Just because you can DO BJJ, or any other martial art, it doesn't mean you can TEACH BJJ. I've had plenty of shitty instructors, who didn't know the first thing about how to organize a curriculum, structure a class, or teach a technique.

    Can anyone point out it me any other place that offers specific courses in how to TEACH martial arts, separate and distinct for how to perform them?

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