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  1. goodlun is online now
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    Posted On:
    11/04/2010 3:51pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by RaiderFunk View Post
    I think what is being said is if your INSTRUCTOR is getting certified by this method of DVD and he is a certified Gracie Intstructor, wouldn't your training suffer?

    Let's say I'm some fat 40 year old guy who see's gracie jiu jitsu here sign and comes in to learn BJJ. How would I feel that my instructor was trained and certified through tape...I keep thinking of this:

    YouTube - Eric Ingram's Blue Belt Test - Drill 5 - Freestyle Fight Simulation

    they watched this and gave him a blue belt...a similar system is being used to certify instructors.
    So because they made special dispensation for a guy who is at a physical disadvantage compared to the majority of people who go for blue belt you think the whole system is a wreck?
  2. Team Python is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/04/2010 5:38pm


     Style: BJJ, Libre, Street Boxing

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    Quote Originally Posted by slideyfoot View Post
    I'm still not sure it is anything but a shift in marketing, rather than a significant change in technique. After all, a triangle is a triangle, whether or not it is taught by somebody labelling themselves as 'self defence' jiu jitsu or 'sport' jiu jitsu. Comparing how it is taught on the Gracie Combatives DVDs and how I've seen it taught in class (I've trained at six schools now), I don't see a revolutionary difference.

    What would you define as sport techniques? I hear people point to things like flying triangles and inverted guard, but in almost every school I've attended, there is some kind of basics/fundamentals class which sticks to basic armbar, triangle, cross-choke, escapes, transition to mount from side control etc.

    It would certainly seem that the success of Gracie Combatives has made an impact, as I'm hearing a lot more talk about 'sport' jiu jitsu vs 'self defence' jiu jitsu from various schools. Gracie Barra has its own series of Gracie Barra Fundamentals DVDs, and Alliance has recently started up a self defence focused course: the language is very reminiscent of the Gracie Academy.



    As ever, Rorion's marketing appears to be very effective, as apparently other schools are picking up on it (to be fair, it is possible that other schools have had programs like this in the works for a long time, so perhaps it is just a coincidence).
    Sport technique would be anything that leaves you open to strikes. You eighter keep them real close to where their strikes are ineffective or at a distance where they can't reach you. Sport techniques such as upside down gaurd leaves you open for strikes so it is useless in a real fight.

    Like I said schools are going back to the way it was because they are realizing it is self defense is an important part of BJJ than sport.
  3. goodlun is online now
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    Posted On:
    11/04/2010 5:51pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Python View Post
    Sport technique would be anything that leaves you open to strikes. You eighter keep them real close to where their strikes are ineffective or at a distance where they can't reach you. Sport techniques such as upside down gaurd leaves you open for strikes so it is useless in a real fight.

    Like I said schools are going back to the way it was because they are realizing it is self defense is an important part of BJJ than sport.
    How often are sport techniques going to come up in a self defense scenario? If your getting punched at you are going to cover up. I find if baffling that the sports guy mentality isn't going to change at all from sport to self defense. Lets face it the sports guy mentality changes from drills, to rolling, to competition why wouldn't it change when to self defense in that situation?
  4. Team Python is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/04/2010 6:10pm


     Style: BJJ, Libre, Street Boxing

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    Quote Originally Posted by goodlun View Post
    How often are sport techniques going to come up in a self defense scenario? If your getting punched at you are going to cover up. I find if baffling that the sports guy mentality isn't going to change at all from sport to self defense. Lets face it the sports guy mentality changes from drills, to rolling, to competition why wouldn't it change when to self defense in that situation?
    You will respond the way you train.......under stressful situations the body will react to what it is used to.....so if you have bad habits then you could leave your self open. Why don't you roll with several people and have them punch you any way they want......try seeing if you can deal with the strikes easily without proper training.

    I have had guys visit my school and they come from a school that mostly trains for competition. When they participate in our Vale-Tudo classes and get hit several times they quickly realize there is more to dealing with punches than they thought....it changes your whole game.
  5. slideyfoot is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/04/2010 7:08pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Python View Post
    Sport technique would be anything that leaves you open to strikes. You eighter keep them real close to where their strikes are ineffective or at a distance where they can't reach you. Sport techniques such as upside down gaurd leaves you open for strikes so it is useless in a real fight.
    Ok, but again, in those beginner classes I mentioned, I have never seen anyone teach upside down guard. In fact, because I'm a geek, I've noted both on a blog and in a spreadsheet exactly what I've been taught since I started training in 2006 (so, the extra geeky version of this).

    If I filter it for beginner classes, the only thing I can see that might be thought of as particularly 'sport' is a month Gracie Barra Birmingham spent on De La Riva (during August this year). I doubt my experience is atypical, especially as like I said, I've bounced around a fair bit so this is across six schools.

    So I'm not convinced by the Gracie Academy telling me that apparently everyone else is teaching ridiculous, unworkable techniques that would get them beaten up on the street. I can see why they might point to something like the 50/50 as a little suspect (not something I've ever been taught), but on the other hand, the undisputed champion of 'sport' BJJ emerged from the 2009 Mundials as Roger Gracie.

    His strategy for victory was one even Hélio couldn't have criticised: secure mount, finish with a choke. Roger clearly didn't play for points, insisting on the submission in all nine of his fights. He won them all with a basic choke: it would not appear that in order to do so, he developed "reflexes that will be disastrously counterproductive in a real fight" (which is what the Gracie University literature claims will result from training at a 'sport' school, apparently defined as anywhere that isn't Gracie Academy certified).

    Why don't you roll with several people and have them punch you any way they want......try seeing if you can deal with the strikes easily without proper training.
    Absolutely, punches make a massive difference. However, Gracie Combatives does not feature people actively trying to punch you any way they want (does sparring with punches feature as a part of the Instructor Certification Program?) In fact, it doesn't feature any resistance at all, as the whole point is to be co-operative, so I'm not sure I would count that as being properly trained to deal with punches in a grappling situation.

    If I wanted to test my grappling against somebody trying to punch me in the face, I would look to train some MMA. Or indeed somewhere like your school (presuming that's your place?), where I could try vale tudo and cross-train in muay thai.

    Having said that, I thought Rener did a good job with the punch block series, and that certainly isn't something I've ever seen taught at the places I've trained (though at the same time, it isn't something I'd want to train either: I generally don't find training with a self-defence focus all that interesting, but to each their own).

    Incidentally, if you're under Pedro Carvalho, then that makes a lot of sense, as I gather he was doing this kind of thing when Rener was still barely into his teens (judging from what I saw on Carvalho's old 1996 instructional).
  6. RaiderFunk is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/04/2010 8:21pm


     Style: BJJ

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    Quote Originally Posted by goodlun View Post
    So because they made special dispensation for a guy who is at a physical disadvantage compared to the majority of people who go for blue belt you think the whole system is a wreck?
    of course not. As I said before I am concerned that someone walks into a gym and does not know that the person teaching the course earned his credential via video tape. Now, based on how old this thread is and the other information, it appears that the process has been tightened up a bit. It's a concern, not an accusation.
  7. goodlun is online now
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    Posted On:
    11/04/2010 10:35pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by RaiderFunk View Post
    of course not. As I said before I am concerned that someone walks into a gym and does not know that the person teaching the course earned his credential via video tape. Now, based on how old this thread is and the other information, it appears that the process has been tightened up a bit. It's a concern, not an accusation.
    Fair enough, and it is indeed a good concern. Its just that the Gracie Combative people from what I understand where never meant to have a gym that teach BJJ it was something that they compliment to there own training. IE the Karate place that wants to add self defense basic grappling to their training. So to be honest I am not sure how it really effects the ma population at large other than exposing people to the concept that they have to learn some ground fighting and some standing grappling to be viable in a street fight.
  8. Team Python is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/04/2010 10:57pm


     Style: BJJ, Libre, Street Boxing

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    Quote Originally Posted by slideyfoot View Post
    Ok, but again, in those beginner classes I mentioned, I have never seen anyone teach upside down guard. In fact, because I'm a geek, I've noted both on a blog and in a spreadsheet exactly what I've been taught since I started training in 2006 (so, the extra geeky version of this).

    If I filter it for beginner classes, the only thing I can see that might be thought of as particularly 'sport' is a month Gracie Barra Birmingham spent on De La Riva (during August this year). I doubt my experience is atypical, especially as like I said, I've bounced around a fair bit so this is across six schools.

    So I'm not convinced by the Gracie Academy telling me that apparently everyone else is teaching ridiculous, unworkable techniques that would get them beaten up on the street. I can see why they might point to something like the 50/50 as a little suspect (not something I've ever been taught), but on the other hand, the undisputed champion of 'sport' BJJ emerged from the 2009 Mundials as Roger Gracie.

    His strategy for victory was one even Hélio couldn't have criticised: secure mount, finish with a choke. Roger clearly didn't play for points, insisting on the submission in all nine of his fights. He won them all with a basic choke: it would not appear that in order to do so, he developed "reflexes that will be disastrously counterproductive in a real fight" (which is what the Gracie University literature claims will result from training at a 'sport' school, apparently defined as anywhere that isn't Gracie Academy certified).

    Absolutely, punches make a massive difference. However, Gracie Combatives does not feature people actively trying to punch you any way they want (does sparring with punches feature as a part of the Instructor Certification Program?) In fact, it doesn't feature any resistance at all, as the whole point is to be co-operative, so I'm not sure I would count that as being properly trained to deal with punches in a grappling situation.

    If I wanted to test my grappling against somebody trying to punch me in the face, I would look to train some MMA. Or indeed somewhere like your school (presuming that's your place?), where I could try vale tudo and cross-train in muay thai.

    Having said that, I thought Rener did a good job with the punch block series, and that certainly isn't something I've ever seen taught at the places I've trained (though at the same time, it isn't something I'd want to train either: I generally don't find training with a self-defence focus all that interesting, but to each their own).

    Incidentally, if you're under Pedro Carvalho, then that makes a lot of sense, as I gather he was doing this kind of thing when Rener was still barely into his teens (judging from what I saw on Carvalho's old 1996 instructional).
    Yeah the school is mine and I have been with Pedro since day one of my training. The basic techniques such as cross choke from the mount can be used in sport and a real fight....no doubt about that. A lot of techniques can be used for both. However as an instructor I have to let my students know how to modify a technique for use in a fight. Like I said I train my guys for competition but I don't focus all of my training on that alone. I believe you have to do all three. Rickson said it best in a recent seminar that was posted in an article. He said that 33 percent of training should be on competition training the reamining should be on Vale-Tudo and self defense. This I believe as well.

    Now what the Gracie Academy does is their own business. I am not affiliated with them and I don't care what they do. However they must be doing something right because they are making a killing doing it.
  9. mcjon is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/04/2010 11:50pm


     Style: BJJ

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    Quote Originally Posted by slideyfoot View Post
    Ok, but again, in those beginner classes I mentioned, I have never seen anyone teach upside down guard. In fact, because I'm a geek, I've noted both on a blog and in a spreadsheet exactly what I've been taught since I started training in 2006 (so, the extra geeky version of this).
    ...
    First, I just wanted to say that I love your blog. :)

    As you mentioned in the later part of your post, the inclusion of punches is a key issue. Specifically, how does one close the distance and achieve the clinch, while minimizing the chances of being knocked out? The combatives course (as do several of the other self defense focused BJJ schools) has methods that address this issue.

    A second area that a more SD focused BJJ school addresses that perhaps an exclusively sport focused BJJ school doesn't are standing grappling attacks, such as standing headlocks, bearhugs, standing RNCs and front chokes, etc. While some folks might not thing that those attacks are "realistic" in a real street scenario, I know for a fact that they are. On multiple occasions (usually in bars) I have seen some guy either headlocking or doing a front choke on another guy.

    In one of the countries I regularly travel to, a guy was committing a series of strong-arm robberies against tourists by simply walking up behind them and putting an RNC on them. I know a gentleman that was the victim of this. He tried fighting back, but had no idea how to get out of it. The next thing he knows, he is waking up on the sidewalk a few minutes later, without his wallet, watch, and passport.

    A third area that a more SD focused school will address are at least SOME techniques that can be employed that do not REQUIRE the defender to go to the ground with the attacker. While Gracie combatives has one technique for this (standing armbar) IIRC, the Gracie Barra fundamentals does a better job with multiple techniques to address this, my favorite being a simple hip throw.


    Quote Originally Posted by slideyfoot View Post
    I generally don't find training with a self-defence focus all that interesting, but to each their own...
    I think what many BJJ instructors are beginning to realize (something that most other martial arts instructors have known for decades) is that folks like yourself don't make up the majority of the potential customer base. SOME bjj schools seem to market themselves to three groups:
    1)Those entering MMA
    2)Those who want to compete in BJJ/submission wrestling tournaments
    3)Those looking to get in shape

    Whereas, I would be willing to bet that the MAJORITY of people interested in taking a martial art are among these two groups:
    1) Self Defense
    2) Those looking to get in shape

    A martial arts school that ignores the self-defense market is missing out on a HUGE market. If you are the only BJJ school in town, you can probably get away with ignoring self defense. However, in my city and the surrounding suburbs there are probably over 20 places offering BJJ programs, many (most?) with black belt instructors. Someone opening up a school has got to carve out a niche for themselves.
  10. slideyfoot is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/05/2010 7:36am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    In one of the countries I regularly travel to, a guy was committing a series of strong-arm robberies against tourists by simply walking up behind them and putting an RNC on them.
    Interesting: do you have any links to news sites running that story?

    A martial arts school that ignores the self-defense market is missing out on a HUGE market. If you are the only BJJ school in town, you can probably get away with ignoring self defense. However, in my city and the surrounding suburbs there are probably over 20 places offering BJJ programs, many (most?) with black belt instructors. Someone opening up a school has got to carve out a niche for themselves.
    True, although I'm not sure I would say that those BJJ schools are ignoring self defence, just that they're not explicitly emphasising certain techniques as 'self defence' rather than 'sport'. I can't think of many martial arts schools that don't mention "learn effective self defence" somewhere in their marketing.

    Still, I agree that with the rise of Gracie Combatives, it is becoming a point of divergence. That's presumably why Alliance wanted to clarify that they can cater to a self defence market as well. I would be interested to know if the explicit distinction between 'sport' jiu jitsu and 'self defence' jiu jitsu has had widespread recognition for many years in BJJ, or if it is a more recent split due to the success of Rorion's recent marketing. I've only been training since 2006, but it seems I'm seeing that clear division discussed with specific terminology a lot more now than when I started.

    Then again, that Pedro Carvalho video series talked about it, and that was 14 years ago. Something Mario Sperry talked about on his old vids too, IIRC, not to mention the well known interview with Helio on the Gracie Jiu Jitsu Advanced series. This is Mario Sperry in an article from 1998:

    Quote Originally Posted by Mario Sperry, Black Belt Magazine
    The majority of the Brazilian jujutsu instructors in America are teaching sport jujutsu. Americans must understand that sport jujutsu may not be the most effective method of self-defence in the street. [...] If they try these [sport] techniques in a real fight, they are going to be in for a big shock. These techniques won't work. Everything from the takedown to the finish of the fight is different.
    So could well be that Gracie Combatives simply provided a way to rekindle the debate. I wonder if that goes for the specific self defence orientated programs that are now coming out of Alliance, Gracie Barra and Gracie Humaita too, or if those kind of programs have been around for a long time, and these are just updates?

    Quote Originally Posted by mcjon View Post
    First, I just wanted to say that I love your blog. :)
    Thanks for the kind words.

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