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  1. Teh El Macho is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/15/2007 3:11pm

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     Style: creonte on hiatus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by ergo
    I know the basics of boxing. But really, it's kinda obvious that it wouldn't work well without gloves.
    I thought you said you in your first post that you were going to learn boxing next year? :icon_scra

    Quote Originally Posted by ergo
    I was thinking of learning some boxing next year

    Anyways, I was referring to actual, solid experience. Superficial knowledge doesn't really count. BTW, I'm not nit-picking on you - my striking knowledge is quite rudimentary (an euphemism for uncultivated shittiness.)

    Quote Originally Posted by ergo
    My point is that the technique works when gloves are involved, but doesn't work when they aren't involved. Or at least doesn't work well enough
    I understand your point. I just don't believe it is that relevant or important when it comes to adapting your skills for a SD situation (more on that later.)

    Quote Originally Posted by ergo
    Also, if you can't learn how to deal with someone wearing gloves, how could you possibly expect to know how to deal with someone that doesn't have them?
    I know that.
    Well, then that's what confuses me with your original question or concern (maybe I'm not understanding... oh well.) If you know that MT (just like Judo) are sports-oriented martial arts with SD applications, then it should be obvious that there will be things that are very sports-specific and that are not necessarily suitable for SD (or that at least may require on-the-fly modification.)

    By the same token, it should also be obvious that with those sport-specific peculiarities come a myriad of things that are readily usable or adjustable outside of the sport context in question : footwork, hand conditioning, physical conditioning, evasion, knowing how to take a punch without panicking, all those come to mind.

    It is at this point that the practitioner must use his discretion in what to use and what not to use in and out of the ring/mat. One thing that I'm certain is that for every nugget of sport-specific minutia you may find in MT (or in any other form of sports-oriented, hard-contact martial art), you'll find a lot more that will be more than adecuate for SD applications.

    I wouldn't worry or concentrate on those sport-specific nuggets or what is applicable to SD. Those things will become self-evident the more you train. In fact, if we were to worry about them, we could use the same logic to argue not even boxing is good for SD either given that boxers still use gloves, wraps their hands and have no clinch game at all.

    This thread is becoming a topic not quite suitable for strikeistan. But just consider this. Assuming **** hits the fan and a SD fight ensues (which we fucked up in the awareness and de-escalation department), the minimum that you will need is a jab and evasive footwork. If you can keep someone at bay for the first X number of seconds (I dunno, 10, 15) while rattling them with a good jab, you'll have a good chance of surviving with minor injuries and little to no legal repercusions.

    And a good jab and evasive footwork are not going to be developed in barenuckled isolation, but as part of a more comprehensive curriculum with body protection that allows you to train hard and often with minimum risk of injury... ****, that's deep. :tongue3:

    -- EDIT -- what cyrijl said

    Quote Originally Posted by cyrijl
    Sometimes in MT you just need to cover and weather out the storm unti lyou get your chance.
    This strategy may sometimes work better in SD as well.

    Don't think too much about what works and what doesn't work in a SD situation.
    Read this for flexibility and injury prevention, this, this and this for supplementation, this on grip conditioning, and this on staph. New: On strenght standards, relationships and structural balance. Shoulder problems? Read this.

    My crapuous vlog and my blog of training, stuff and crap. NEW: Me, Mrs. Macho and our newborn baby.

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    The street argument is retarded. BJJ is so much overkill for the street that its ridiculous. Unless you're the idiot that picks a fight with the high school wrestling team, barring knife or gun play, the opponent shouldn't make it past double leg + ground and pound - Osiris
      #11
  2. cyrijl is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/15/2007 3:19pm

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     Style: BJJ, MT, Yoga

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Covering also protects you against straight, hook and uppercut punches relatively easily and without having to move your arms too much. Blocking and parrying strikes means you have a greater adjustment for each type of strike.

    Just stay on track and don't try to predict what is coming up in terms of the curriculum. Before you can think of parrying an incoming fist, you should learn how to protect the coconut. If you go to a respectible gym you will learn everything you need to.
      #12
  3. WhiteShark is offline
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    1% Shark is better than you.

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    Posted On:
    10/15/2007 3:21pm

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     Style: BJJ/Shidokan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    It is a total myth that shelling up and crazy monkey style blocks don't work on teh str33t! Remember that although bare fists are smaller in most cases your assailant is going to be less accurate. Even an experienced striker can be startled and face a huge adrenaline rush that makes them inaccurate on the d34dly str33ts.
      #13
  4. ergo is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/15/2007 4:18pm


     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh El Macho
    I thought you said you in your first post that you were going to learn boxing next year? :icon_scra
    I don't know enough boxing.

    ****, that's deep. :tongue3:
    You're making this too complicated. The point was simply this: if MT's style of blocking isn't suitable for street self-defense, then I'll have to supplement my training with boxing. That's it.
      #14
  5. WhiteShark is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/15/2007 4:23pm

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     Style: BJJ/Shidokan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by ergo
    The point was simply this: if MT's style of blocking isn't suitable for street self-defense, then I'll have to supplement my training with boxing. That's it.
    The thing is you assume boxing style "blocking" is effective for the street while we assume that boxing style blocking is very similar/the same as Muay Thai style blocking. So when you say you will learn Boxing to make your Muay Thai more street effective we are left scratching our heads.

    Covering is just one technique of Muay Thai and Boxing you will also learn dodging and parrying. That is pretty much all you need and is very similar between boxing and Muay Thai.
      #15
  6. ergo is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/15/2007 4:47pm


     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteShark
    The thing is you assume boxing style "blocking" is effective for the street while we assume that boxing style blocking is very similar/the same as Muay Thai style blocking. So when you say you will learn Boxing to make your Muay Thai more street effective we are left scratching our heads.

    Covering is just one technique of Muay Thai and Boxing you will also learn dodging and parrying. That is pretty much all you need and is very similar between boxing and Muay Thai.
    Yeah, I think I just got confused. I thought we were learning how to block, but we were probably just covering. At least I hope we were. I'll find out in a few weeks.
      #16
  7. oversteer is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/16/2007 8:39am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Muay Thai / Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by ergo
    Yeah, I think I just got confused. I thought we were learning how to block, but we were probably just covering. At least I hope we were. I'll find out in a few weeks.
    Just out of interest, what do you mean by "blocking"? Like what are you expecting to be taught in repsonse to a straight punch that will be more useful on the street than a standard Crazy Monkey/boxing cover up?

    To answer your question, I have had about 6 years of training between boxing and MT and (at a simplistic level) I've only come across the following defences to a basic punch:

    1) Cover up, whether that be CM style or the MT style with one elbow up to protect against hooks and downward elbow strikes (the way you would have been shown to block a hook, I imagine). Either way is still going to work pretty well against a bare fist, especially the latter if done properly. There's also the cross-wise George Foreman style cover up, which is quite useful, since they have a good chance of punching your elbow and busting their hand, but which I would advise against in MT as it leaves your ribs pretty damn exposed.

    2) Parry. Basically having your hands up in a good guard and using the inside of your glove/hand to tap their incoming punch the couple of inches that it will take to make them miss. This is great, but again relies a lot on the gloves to be effective I imagine. I've never tried it on "the deadly streets" because it requires excellent timing and reflexes (plus it helps if someone is actually throwing a textbook jab/cross, not just swinging away). I've eaten many, many punches in sparring from trying to pick punches and parry them. It is much better than the cover up for throwing a quick return punch though, as your hands are already in the right position.

    3) Similar to the parry, catching the punch on the inside of your glove (your palm facing the opponent), while delivering a return punch with the opposite hand. This is great for jabs - cover your face with your right hand and at the same time shoot your own jab into their nose. Again, easier with gloves on. Plus I've never had someone throw a nice jab at me in a real fight (I'm not a deadly street warrior though, so I dunno, maybe it happens all the time).

    4) Slip the punch. Self-explanatory. It requires very good timing and a lot of sparring experience to do it consistently though. You want to slip as little distance as possible to avoid the punch - leaning too far over like a bob and weave in boxing got me owned by a head kick in an amatuer MT match. Probably good for SD too, as long as you can think that clearly with all the adrenaline going, and keep your hands up in case you miss-time it.

    5) Duck. You know the drill. Good for wild haymakers, which according to SD classes is the only attack thrown by people on the street. Not a good idea in MT generally unless you like the taste of knee.

    6) Teep/push kick them in the gut before their shot lands. Probably the best one. Requires great timing to do properly though. You want to hit them with it at the point when they've committed enough of their weight/momentum to the punch that they can't just scoop your kick off easily. This would work great on the street I'm sure - I just wouldn't be game to try it.

    I'm sure I've missed something, but that's all I can think of at the moment. Out of those six methods, I've used two in "real" fights - CM type cover and ducking. And the duck was only in response to a horribly wide swing that my ancestors probably saw coming. Even being what some would consider a moderately good striker, covering up is almost the only method that I'd feel is high enough percentage to be comfortable using when the adrenaline's pumping and you don't know if the person coming at you is a total chump or a Golden Gloves fighter. Take their first swing or two on your forearms/elbows, pick your oppurtunity and come back with punch/elbow/knee of your own. Or maybe I'm just a **** street fighter and I fail at teh deadly :(

    Oh and if you want to learn some crazy ass karate "blocks" that rely on you intercepting each incoming punch like Neo in the Matrix, or like the chun guys dream of doing, go ahead, try it in a bar fight and let me know how that works out.

    EDIT: haha that was long as hell... not sure why I bothered writing all that, but I hope some of it is informative or something
    Last edited by oversteer; 10/16/2007 8:43am at .
      #17
  8. cyrijl is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/16/2007 9:27am

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     Style: BJJ, MT, Yoga

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    While it was a bit repetitive, it was well formatted if that makes you feel any better. Most people's 6th post is "L1LOXoRS yo mama:
      #18
  9. ergo is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/16/2007 7:28pm


     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by oversteer
    Just out of interest, what do you mean by "blocking"? Like what are you expecting to be taught in repsonse to a straight punch that will be more useful on the street than a standard Crazy Monkey/boxing cover up?
    I'm thinking that blocking is synonymous with parrying (in the English language), but apparently that's not the case. So yeah, it seems I'm actually talking about parrying.

    1) Cover up, whether that be CM style or the MT style with one elbow up to protect against hooks and downward elbow strikes (the way you would have been shown to block a hook, I imagine). Either way is still going to work pretty well against a bare fist, especially the latter if done properly. There's also the cross-wise George Foreman style cover up, which is quite useful, since they have a good chance of punching your elbow and busting their hand, but which I would advise against in MT as it leaves your ribs pretty damn exposed.
    The MT cover against hooks seems like it would work pretty well with or without gloves, but I'm a concerned about the cover against a straight punch. It seems to rely on the presence of gloves.

    2) Parry.
    4) Slip the punch.
    These are the ones I am looking to learn.
      #19
  10. golsa is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/16/2007 8:12pm


     Style: sport Aikido & Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You should be learning to parry punches anytime now as its usually covered just a few weeks into the class. Were you wanting to know how long it takes to learn to parry or are you wanting e-instructions on parrying or something?

    Slipping should be covered a few weeks after you get parrying down. Not sure I'd recommend slipping much of anything in a street fight though... others have already said it, but it takes some really good timing and puts you in a good position to be head butt, take an elbow, or be taken down for a knee to the head. You don't see slipping often in Muay Thai for these very reasons, like someone else already said too.

    Muay Thai hands down offers more stuff that may be applied to SD than any other form of combat sport striking (except maybe Jun Fan kickboxing, but I'm biased...). Boxing does drill bob & weave more than MT, but MT fights will be much more like SD situations than boxing matches imo because knees and elbows come in real life. Having said that, yeah most tools for dealing with punches suck. Footwork and shielding will still be your best bets and you're going to take punches, at least in class, regardless of what you do so get used to it.
      #20
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