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  1. theword is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/15/2007 5:14pm


     Style: boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Can you even use a hammerfist at any kind of range while standing? It seems like it loses power exponentially the further it travels from your body and feels weak (of course I've never been trained in it) unless you're standing in a clinch and you have someone positioned under you. As opposed to a well thrown cross where you might want a little bit of distance so you're punch isn't 'crowded'. Also, maybe some of you palm strikers could answer this, but do you turn your fist over when you palm strike? I'm not talking about the drastic thumb pointed to the floor rotation, but it feels (again no training in palm strikes) awkward with any rotation at all.

    And finally, while were talking about easily broken bones, is it harder to break your wrist then I think it is?
      #11
  2. Craigypooh is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/15/2007 5:29pm


     Style: TSD

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I would agree that hammerfist is an awkward blow to land in stand-up. I think I'd only be inclined to use it in the same way as a spinning backfist, or may be to the back of the head of someone charging head first at me (if they ever charged slowly enough to let me land it).
      #12
  3. JP is offline
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    It's all about the clinch. The clinch, I said.

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    Posted On:
    10/15/2007 5:32pm

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     Style: SAMBO, mma, jiujitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by theword
    Can you even use a hammerfist at any kind of range while standing? It seems like it loses power exponentially the further it travels from your body and feels weak (of course I've never been trained in it) unless you're standing in a clinch and you have someone positioned under you. As opposed to a well thrown cross where you might want a little bit of distance so you're punch isn't 'crowded'. Also, maybe some of you palm strikers could answer this, but do you turn your fist over when you palm strike? I'm not talking about the drastic thumb pointed to the floor rotation, but it feels (again no training in palm strikes) awkward with any rotation at all.

    And finally, while were talking about easily broken bones, is it harder to break your wrist then I think it is?
    Its harder to break your wrist than you think.

    But I think that using punches you're more likely to break your hand than your wrist in either case.

    I hear a lot of SD advocate palm strikes for hitting to the face when you aren't wearing gloves. There's video out there of Bas Rutten using palm strikes to great effect during his Pancrase days.

    My beef with the pheonix eye stuff is that it seems like a lot of work to learn to use something that maybe could get accomplished just as easily as a fist. It seems like needless exoticism to me. Now, I'm willing to listen to opposing view-points, but that's just a knee jerk reaction.

    Hammer fists are fine on the ground. It feels like a better strike for that. When you can actually strike downwards. On the feet it feels like you're be better off using hooks for striking with your hands.
    Go placidly amid the noise and haste,
    and remember what peace there may be in silence.
    As far as possible, without surrender,
    be on good terms with all persons.
    Speak your truth quietly and clearly;
    and listen to others,
    even to the dull and ignorant;
    they too have their story.

    -excerpt of the poem called "Desiderata," by Max Ehrman, 1927.
      #13
  4. theword is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/15/2007 8:01pm


     Style: boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by JP
    Its harder to break your wrist than you think.

    But I think that using punches you're more likely to break your hand than your wrist in either case.
    I guess I should elaborate on why I was thinking wrist break. I've broken my left wrist twice while snowboarding...well one time I was snowboarding and I fell, the other time I was walking out of a lodge and slipped on a patch of ice and broke it again. However, both times my hand was in the approximate position that I often see being touted as the correct way to throw a palm strike (fingers up or curled in, hand angled up).

    I understand the first time I broke my wrist. I more or less fell with all of my weight on my wrist. However, the second time I hardly felt the impact of the fall on my wrist and honestly I hardly felt like I fell at all. Which led me to believe that the wrist is a fragile structure.
      #14
  5. TheMightyMcClaw is offline
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    MADE OF STEEL!

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    Posted On:
    10/15/2007 8:27pm

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     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by theword

    And finally, while were talking about easily broken bones, is it harder to break your wrist then I think it is?
    I'm more worried about the fingers with palm strikes. With the fingers extended (as opposed to the fingers half curled in leopard paw thing) it seems lie they're at a decent risk of being broken if you miss and impact with them at funny angle. Although, if you hit with the upper part of your palm, it seems like it would put a lot of pressure on your wrist.
    I've seen some of the Pancrase guys throw decent palm strikes (though I'd like you to think back on how many Pancrase knockouts you've seen before getting too excited) with slapping time motions, but has anyone ever seen the palm heel thrust thing work?
      #15
  6. JP is offline
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    It's all about the clinch. The clinch, I said.

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    Posted On:
    10/15/2007 8:37pm

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     Style: SAMBO, mma, jiujitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by theword
    I guess I should elaborate on why I was thinking wrist break. I've broken my left wrist twice while snowboarding...well one time I was snowboarding and I fell, the other time I was walking out of a lodge and slipped on a patch of ice and broke it again. However, both times my hand was in the approximate position that I often see being touted as the correct way to throw a palm strike (fingers up or curled in, hand angled up).

    I understand the first time I broke my wrist. I more or less fell with all of my weight on my wrist. However, the second time I hardly felt the impact of the fall on my wrist and honestly I hardly felt like I fell at all. Which led me to believe that the wrist is a fragile structure.
    I've blown out both of them twice each while skateboarding. Remember two things:
    1) you're not dealing with same kind of force.
    2)you can position yourself correctly when you're striking on purpose instead of panicking in a fall.

    I lied theres a third thing to remember: its violence. Injury is a distinct and often unavoidable side-effect. Get used to it.
    Go placidly amid the noise and haste,
    and remember what peace there may be in silence.
    As far as possible, without surrender,
    be on good terms with all persons.
    Speak your truth quietly and clearly;
    and listen to others,
    even to the dull and ignorant;
    they too have their story.

    -excerpt of the poem called "Desiderata," by Max Ehrman, 1927.
      #16
  7. JP is offline
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    It's all about the clinch. The clinch, I said.

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    Posted On:
    10/15/2007 8:40pm

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     Style: SAMBO, mma, jiujitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by TheMightyMcClaw
    I'm more worried about the fingers with palm strikes. With the fingers extended (as opposed to the fingers half curled in leopard paw thing) it seems lie they're at a decent risk of being broken if you miss and impact with them at funny angle. Although, if you hit with the upper part of your palm, it seems like it would put a lot of pressure on your wrist.
    I've seen some of the Pancrase guys throw decent palm strikes (though I'd like you to think back on how many Pancrase knockouts you've seen before getting too excited) with slapping time motions, but has anyone ever seen the palm heel thrust thing work?

    If you're careful to slap with the heel of the palm you can generate a ****-load of force. But if you slap with the palm your gonna get more pain than power out of it. Bas palm-struck a guy in the liver and knocked him out. Its doable. But this is the Mighty El Guapo we're talking about. He's not exactly ordinary.

    But again, punching with a fist is problematic and palm-striking has its own downsides too. Somebody is trying to **** you up. You're already in a worst case scenario kind of....
    Go placidly amid the noise and haste,
    and remember what peace there may be in silence.
    As far as possible, without surrender,
    be on good terms with all persons.
    Speak your truth quietly and clearly;
    and listen to others,
    even to the dull and ignorant;
    they too have their story.

    -excerpt of the poem called "Desiderata," by Max Ehrman, 1927.
      #17
  8. Jim_Jude is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/16/2007 2:15am

    Join us... or die
     Style: StrikeyGrappling & WW2-fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by TheMightyMcClaw
    I'm more worried about the fingers with palm strikes. With the fingers extended (as opposed to the fingers half curled in leopard paw thing) it seems lie they're at a decent risk of being broken if you miss and impact with them at funny angle. Although, if you hit with the upper part of your palm, it seems like it would put a lot of pressure on your wrist.
    I've seen some of the Pancrase guys throw decent palm strikes (though I'd like you to think back on how many Pancrase knockouts you've seen before getting too excited) with slapping time motions, but has anyone ever seen the palm heel thrust thing work?
    I kinda stick to the hard/soft concept, with open hands to the head & punch to the body.

    Some wrist flexibility, & I mean a moderate amount, is very useful for keeping the optimum form for palm & palm heel strikes. In my experience, the distal portion of the palm is not used exclusively, it's either the whole palm, the palm heel, the ulnar aspect of the palm heel, & any of the various chops are the primary arsenal.
    (Also, the ulna, when sufficiently conditioned, works very well at ranges too close for hands and too far for elbows.)

    As far as Pancrase knockouts, there were plenty of effective strikes as we can see on video (remember, it was no fist or elbows TO THE HEAD). I see the issue being many fighters had problems converting over to open hand rules after being trained to punch. Bas didn't have a problem with it, of course we have plenty of video of him being very effective for 5 years in Pancrase, & he did say that if he had a choice he would rather punch, but hey! his whole fight history prior was Tae Kwon Do, Kyokushinkai, and Muay Thai. He already had a respectable fight record prior, which means a ton of training. Of course he's more comfortable punching.

    Bas made it work, AND YOU CAN TOO!
    Last edited by Jim_Jude; 10/16/2007 2:21am at .
    "Judo is a study of techniques with which you may kill if you wish to kill, injure if you wish to injure, subdue if you wish to subdue, and, when attacked, defend yourself" - Jigoro Kano (1889)
    ***Was this quote "taken out of context"?***

    "The judoist has no time to allow himself a margin for error, especially in a situation upon which his or another person's very life depends...."
    ~ The Secret of Judo (Jiichi Watanabe & Lindy Avakian), p.19

    "Hope is not a method... nor is enthusiasm."
    ~ Brigadier General Gordon Toney
      #18
  9. Jim_Jude is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/16/2007 2:19am

    Join us... or die
     Style: StrikeyGrappling & WW2-fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by JP
    If you're careful to slap with the heel of the palm you can generate a ****-load of force. But if you slap with the palm your gonna get more pain than power out of it. Bas palm-struck a guy in the liver and knocked him out. Its doable. But this is the Mighty El Guapo we're talking about. He's not exactly ordinary.

    But again, punching with a fist is problematic and palm-striking has its own downsides too. Somebody is trying to **** you up. You're already in a worst case scenario kind of....
    Actually, I seem to remember that one of those good shots was actually a ORGAN RUPTURE. The guy that went down, tried to get up and fell back down had a ruptured liver or spleen or something like that. Organ ruptures from a palm strike? Oh, Shades of Wu-Tang !!!
    "Judo is a study of techniques with which you may kill if you wish to kill, injure if you wish to injure, subdue if you wish to subdue, and, when attacked, defend yourself" - Jigoro Kano (1889)
    ***Was this quote "taken out of context"?***

    "The judoist has no time to allow himself a margin for error, especially in a situation upon which his or another person's very life depends...."
    ~ The Secret of Judo (Jiichi Watanabe & Lindy Avakian), p.19

    "Hope is not a method... nor is enthusiasm."
    ~ Brigadier General Gordon Toney
      #19
  10. SuperCollider is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/16/2007 2:21am


     Style: Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hammerfists are good for use when you get them down and are in side mount. I think Fedor did this against Zulu. Now that's a good fight to watch, and short too.
      #20
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