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  1. HAPKO3 is offline
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    Marasmos

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    Posted On:
    11/01/2003 1:32pm

    supporting member
     Style: 10th Planet JJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Originally posted by Rigante
    Kungfools what level training did you do at SCARS and when?
    Where you are coming from experience wise might help us understand your question. Thanks
    He's an old and pretty uninspired troll.

    Ignore him.
    You say what about my rice?
  2. Perfection is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/01/2003 2:11pm


     Style: Whatever Works

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Fellas, please lets keep this thread civil. Its cool to disagree but no need for us to attack each other. Normally I wouldn't intervene but I think a lot of great information can be exchanged in this thread.

    Anyway, yes...I corresponded with Kungfoolss extensively and his knowledge level in the SCARS system is probably only exceeded by the SCARS instructors.

    However, I tend to disagree that a SCARS person wouldn't go out and get whipped or even sucked into sparring. It really depends on what is intended by the word "sparring". If you have money to go to the camps, you can be an outright spineless coward with absolutely no pride but filled with false confidence afterwards. Whether HAPKO3 had that experience or not, it stilll doesn't reflect negatively on the SCARS system in my opinion.

    Sincerely,

    Ken
  3. Rigante is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/01/2003 2:41pm


     Style: Boxing, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Perfection regarding the leverages for disarms you need essentially at least one technque for going outside the attacker and weapon hand and one inside. This is because your choice of direction will dictated by phsyical obstrucrions and also field of fire considerations and of course in the multi situation where the other attacker is. You need to learn it obviously against left and rt hands. As you are aware sometimes we actually will go for leverage on the non gun hand. (eg attacker has gun at rt hip and his left hand is grabbing your chest - here you would consider going to the outside of his left hand because of the difficulty getting to the weapon hand.

    Regarding the close in I need more specifics for the question

    Regarding the car scenario several tips. (This is aasuming he is in the front passenger seat ) First of all avoid at all costs him trapping you rt forearm down onto your lap or down on the seat as you really need to use this hand. Remember that always push, so push hard with rt and pin the gun hand either against the attacker's body or against the seat. Make sure that the barrel is deflected past the rt of your body. Push your whole self aggressive into the attacker pinning him against the passenger side of the door. Now you are in a good position as both his rt and left hand are usually tied up.
    Now with your free aggressively go after targets. He cant move so pound the **** out these targets. The next step is to then go back to gun hand and turn it into him and start pulling the trigger

    Several points remember the field of fire issue. Is your child or your mother in law in the driver side back seat because that is where the bullets are going. If the attacker has a gun in the left hand you will do the same thing but he will have a free hand too so just do your best to take him out. Finally never give up, actually most people survive being shot so dont stop untill you are dead or unconscious
  4. Perfection is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/01/2003 3:05pm


     Style: Whatever Works

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    So the leverages are the same as the ones you find on the Non lethal gun disarm tape for vol. 1? If so, I can definitely figure out what you're talking about.

    I definitely understood the disarms inside the car, many thanks for the confirmation. Basically, thats when the Krav Maga style disarm is perfectly fine because you don't have to worry about an intentional or accidental military drop or step back. Just clear the weapon and go to work.

    As for close in, there are two primary variations. In both, the gun wielder is behind you with his free arm wrapped around your throat, possibly with his hand covering your mouth. In one, the gun is in back of your head. The second, the gun is either in front of you or to the side, basically the angle in this scenario wouldn't matter. I don't know if you noticed or not, but this crucial scenario was strangely omitted from the gun disarm tape.

    Sincerely,

    Ken
  5. Perfection is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/01/2003 3:10pm


     Style: Whatever Works

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Oh, I just realized why that description may have initially caused some confusion. The disarm I'm describing would be standing and not while inside of a car. Sorry.

    Sincerely,

    Ken
  6. Rigante is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/01/2003 3:50pm


     Style: Boxing, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I havent looked at the tapes in quite a while so I dont remember what specifically was on the tapes. I do what I learned at the course. For going outside the weapon hand (assuming rt hand for discussion) I move in to his rt side while also turning sideways clockwise. At the same time my left hand comes up first to outside of his wrist and begins pushing the muzzle to my right. I then reinforce my left with my rt and drive my left ribs against and down on his rt elbow.(If his rt elbow is bent to much I straighten him with a hard shot of ulnar edge of the forearm against rt angle of the jaw or side of his neck.. this should straighten his arm nicely. In a one on one disarm I drop full body wt on the elbow for a break and bring to the ground. If he still has any fight left I can pound the crap out of his rt temple with the back of my left elbow. This is modified in the multi disarm by not taking him to the ground if possible but putting on a hard enough elbow strike to weaken his grip and the turning the muzzle back in on him or the other attacker.

    I will answer about the other side later as I have this pesky dog (we have spoiled her I am afraid) right now trying to get me to take her for a run. Take care
  7. Perfection is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/01/2003 4:11pm


     Style: Whatever Works

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Take your time. People take this internet thing far too serious. I won't be able to read this thread again until Monday anyway.

    What you described is pretty consistent with the tapes except for the strike to straighten out the attacker.

    I'm assuming however that they didn't do disarms from behind with the attacker's arm around your neck. No big deal to me, the system I'm studying now has disarms for those. They don't necessarily have that almost 100% failsafe feel you have from the SCAR disarms though. The other problem is that their other disarms blatantly violate the push-pull principle so I decided that its best to get my gun disarms from the experts.

    Sincerely,

    Ken
  8. Kungfoolss is offline

    I restore the Balance

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    Posted On:
    11/02/2003 12:35am

    Join us... or die
     Style: I wear pants

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Originally posted by Perfection

    As for close in, there are two primary variations. In both, the gun wielder is behind you with his free arm wrapped around your throat, possibly with his hand covering your mouth. In one, the gun is in back of your head. The second, the gun is either in front of you or to the side, basically the angle in this scenario wouldn't matter. I don't know if you noticed or not, but this crucial scenario was strangely omitted from the gun disarm tape.
    We can only speculate on the reasoning behind this decision, but sufficed to say, it is complex in the extreme. I've been researching and evolving that particular "scenario" for years now, and the random variables that keep popping up in my analysis and field tests necessitates very exact and precise mechanics to ensure the fighter is not shot or those around him are not shot as well. You see, it is not simply a matter of a single equation, but one of many.

    While the attackers dynamics to the layman may seem the same, i.e., the grappling arm around the 'victims' neck, the very placement of the attackers firearm (the variable) will radically alter the equation and govern your actions to it. Such as, is the gun arm being placed in front of your shoulder or behind it? Subsequently, what is the precise angle of the firearm? Can you see it or feel it? Is the attacker moving in a forward motion or pulling you backwards? How much compression is the attacker exerting against you, is it very tight or quite loose? In addition, the firearm need not be directed solely at your head, it can be placed to the center of your back ( In actuality, this happens to be a very simple variable involving a double strike which clears the field of fire and stuns the attacker with a single movement.)

    These variances are but a microcosm of the issues I address in my research for the simple "gun-to-the-head scenario." When you begin to understand the nuances of firearm disarmament, a progression beyond what is considered the "SICS basics," one better appreciates and has a better handle on the complexity of fighting mechanics involved.

    Keep in mind, in 2001, I conversed with Tim Larkin (former SICS Master Trainer and TFT Founder) regarding this very issue and asked him whether the SICS material would allow him to extricate himself from such a hold. He told me after conducting his tests, he personally was 'shot' two out of the three attempts to remove himself from the threat. Needless to say, my research and analysis is ongoing.
    Kungfoolss, Scourge of the theory-based stylists, Most Feared man at Bullshido.com, and the Preeminent Force in the martial arts political arena
  9. Deadpan Scientist is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/02/2003 1:06am

    Join us... or die
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Originally posted by Kungfoolss
    While the attackers dynamics to the layman may seem the same, i.e., the grappling arm around the 'victims' neck, the very placement of the attackers firearm (the variable) will radically alter the equation and govern your actions to it.
    Sounds very reactionary to me...
  10. HAPKO3 is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/02/2003 3:42am

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     Style: 10th Planet JJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The idea that you can express and think of a complex situation such as this one as an "equation" or a set of "equations" that have "variables" and a "solution" is absolutely absurd.

    Perfection and Rigante, is this really a representation of the SCARS way of thinking?

    I certainly hope not.
    You say what about my rice?
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