Orem, UT: Mickey Wonchoi claims $500 got his BJJ black belt

**EternalRage** · Posted On: 1/11/2009 10:40pm

Originally Posted by Blain

While I can appreciate anyone can have grievances with another is it really helpful to make such open challenges in this manner?

My understanding of MA, and I'll readily admit it is pretty limited, is that it teaches among other things restraint and respect. Now, I see from your account this person seems to be behaving in an objectionable fashion, but does it really help the situation for you too resort to a similar manner?

If the guy isn't a black belt he'll be found out in due course anyway so just let it drop.

The BJJ is a pretty tight knit community that polices itself, whether it be on tournament results, whether an instructor is qualified, false claims of belt ranking, etc. It is how BJJ is kept from being degraded into the typical TKD or krotty BS, and is of paramount importance especially now with the rising popularity of submission grappling.

Not to mention, it's the name and reputation of DJColdfusion's school that Wonchoi is taking advantage of, and DJColdfusion himself trained alongside this guy. He has every right to be pissed off and challenge Wonchoi to prove his rank.

**Blain** · Posted On: 1/12/2009 11:14am

Originally Posted by It is Fake

Please, go look at Martial History and legends. Actually, this is exactly how it was handled. You claim something you prove it. When we got away from this, we now have numerous fake arts.

This raises in my view something quite fundamental; are we naturally predisposed towards a warrior spirit, one that resides somewhere within our collective subconscious and instinctly feel obligated to challenges that we suspect as wrong?

It's funny that damn near every art's founder fought, accpeted challenges, and tested their art. Then suddenly, centuries later MA is about restraint. After doing research I know why (from a CMA perspective) but, it still is funny. What you are talking about is relatively new.

Yes, I see validity in this approach, any serious martial arts founder would need to verify the effectiveness of his or her methods.

"Restraint" is perhaps a more challenging aspect for the Martial arts enthusiasts, the power and techniques they develop unleashed without control (restraint) could have serious consequences. So, if the notion of restraint is relatively new I am personally in favour of it.

**It is Fake** · Posted On: 1/12/2009 11:39am

Originally Posted by Blain

This raises in my view something quite fundamental; are we naturally predisposed towards a warrior spirit, one that resides somewhere within our collective subconscious and instinctly feel obligated to challenges that we suspect as wrong?

Derail start another thread.

"Restraint" is perhaps a more challenging aspect for the Martial arts enthusiasts, the power and techniques they develop unleashed without control (restraint) could have serious consequences. So, if the notion of restraint is relatively new I am personally in favour of it.

Fine then that is for you to pursue. Remember you came here and decided to tell him the challenge is wrong and restraint and Respect are very important.

More derail start another thread.

Look you said respect and restraint then, what is this:

That quote from Aaron, who is a legitimate Judo BB, was originally posted on the BJJ-ASIA blog. View the blog entry HERE -- >>
http://www.bjj-asia.com/2008/12/mick...d-profile.html

Mickey is apparently opening, or has opened, a school in Seoul South Korea and tried to get Luke (the host of the BJJ-ASIA blog) to help promote the school. Luke acted in what I consider to be an extremely ethical manner when he researched Mickey's background . . . which led him to contacting me and thus Mickey's fraud proves to be as unstable as the proverbial house of cards . . . but people still seem to be buying into his hype.

I want to make this very clear. I originally tried to make Mickey feel ashamed for what he did because I thought it was the most gentle I way I could rebuke someone who I honestly considered a friend. I had hoped it would be enough to get him to drop his claims . . . I was wrong. I now am more than willing to come out and tell each and every person on this planet that Mickey is committing fraud. He is has lied about his accomplishments and those lies have grown continually more brazen as I, for one, tried to handle it in a more civil manner. I'm angry now. Angry that someone who was unwilling to make the sacrifices that those, of us, who earned the rank legitimately sacrificed glady with the recognition that we were honoring both the art and the people who came before us by doing so. Mickey pissed on all of us and continues to think that he can get away with it.

And I am ashamed for my part in it. Or at least what might have appeared to be my part in it when I incorrectly assumed that Mickey would understand that what he did was wrong and ultimately drop his claim. My naivete has allowed him to defraud more and more people. And as pissed off as I am at Mickey for the insault he has thrown at the feet of Jiu-Jitsu in general and Machado Jiu-Jitsu specifically, I am equally or perhaps even more upset by the fact that I could have prevented much of the harm he has caused those people who have looked to him as their instructor.

I want to apologize to those students and apologize to you, the MA community, for not taking a hard enough stand in this matter. And I want to make it known that the soft approach has ended. We have 4 Machado black belts here in Utah and we are not going to let this fraud continue much longer. We are making sure we cross out legal T's and dot the judicial I's but we are acting.

I also want to reach out to Mickey's defrauded students. If you are one of them, and yes I will demand proof, please contact me at geraldharris1@hotmail.com . I want to make sure you understand what Machado Jiu-Jitsu is and that we really are a family. We all know that the rank you have worked for, and paid good money to Mickey for, won't be recognized by any legitimate organization. I want to try to find a way to make sure you aren't left out in the cold. What that means right now I don't really know. I'll work with the other Machado black belts here in Utah to figure it out.

Hmmm that is not only respectful but, he uses quite a bit of restraint since, he feels he is at fault. He is also trying to help students who may have felt defrauded by Mikey. Notice, no name calling, no insults, he talked to the guy, and did everything according to this "Martial code" you have built up in your mind.

Now, A week later, he posts this:

Here's the email:
-------------------------------
hey!!fucking gerald harris.
i know that your very poor, if you have time, work more and feed your family.
don't spend time on internet stupid white muder f[u]cker...^^*
nothings gonna change man...i'm a black belt you are just poor...kekeke
------------------------------

I've tried not to let this get to me but it has. I openly challenge Mickey to prove his blackbelt status. In fact, come take mine if you can. I will galdly have an arm tied to my side and we can go for submissions only, no time limit, no points. You're a coward Mickey. I'd gladly say that to your face actually I look forward to the day when I get the chance to say it to your face . . . but it won't happen because you are a coward, a liar, a con-artist.

He's actually talking sh*t about my kids in other emails.

Mickey will be surprised by the kind of reach we have here with Machado Utah. We kept quiet for far too long because he used to be a freind and we were doing everything we could to not air our dirty laundry in public . . . but the gloves are off.

If Mickey ever wants to prove that he has legitimate black belt skills then I challenge him to come and take mine. I will gladly agree to a no time limit, no techniques barred, no point, submission only match with one arm tied to my side. If he can beat me then he can take my belt.

It'll never happen, he'll never accept . . . and Korea isn't out of range.

Now, he hasn't provided the entire email so, we have to take him at his word.

Thing is, I do find it funny that you lecture him on the challenge but, don't lecture Mikey.

You know the guy not using any restraint or respect for a former teacher, if this is really his email:

hey!!fucking gerald harris.
i know that your very poor, if you have time, work more and feed your family.
don't spend time on internet stupid white muder f[u]cker...^^*
nothings gonna change man...i'm a black belt you are just poor...kekeke

So, I'm sorry we will disagree on this point.

Also, no more on the challenge and restraint in martial arts topic. This is MABS and it is about the investigation not our differences on restraint and respect.

If you want further discussion start another thread.

**PointyShinyBurn** · Posted On: 1/12/2009 11:54am

To propose a sporting match, conducted under rules designed to protect the safety of both competitors, is not 'lacking restraint' any more than suggesting they settle it with a game would be if they were arguing about tennis skill. Jumping the guy on the street would be 'lacking restraint'.

Blain, the less you lecture people with several hundred times your experience about what is and isn't correct behaviour in martial arts the more pleasant the responses are likely to be.

**It is Fake** · Posted On: 1/12/2009 12:06pm

Thanks PSB.

Also, these posts will be removed shortly. I went and read your newbietown post.

1 Month of Martial Arts training in 2003?
Trying to learn from a book?

You shouldn't be in this thread lecturing anyone.

**Blain** · Posted On: 1/12/2009 12:44pm

Originally Posted by It is Fake

1 Month of Martial Arts training in 2003?
Trying to learn from a book?

You shouldn't be in this thread lecturing anyone.

I wasn't intentionally lecturing anyone but if this how my comments have been perceived then I apologise unreservedly.

That one month training in shotokan was an amazing time and I wish it was possible to have remain in London back then to continue but sadly events stepped in and my life took an unavoidable turn, hence my current predicament.

**DJColdfusion** · Posted On: 2/06/2009 11:51pm

We've been working on legally registering the terms "Machado Jiu-Jitsu", "Rigan Machado Jiu-Jitsu" and preparing a cease and decease letter. The letter will be sent to Mickey's Utah school in the next few weeks with a possible lawsuit in the next few months. I hope the lawsuit doesn't have to happen but we have put everything in place . . . just in case.

**Gabetuno** · Posted On: 2/07/2009 2:41pm

This doesn't stop him from saying he's a BB in BJJ, though, just MJJ or RMJJ, right?

**Uncle Skippy** · Posted On: 2/19/2009 12:17am

Update from mma.tv (http://www.mixedmartialarts.com/mma....thread=1420358). Figured that a posting of it here might be appropriate. Hopefully the full copy/paste is ok. If not, split me out to YMAS.

Originally Posted by John Frankl

Dear Friends,

This summer it will be 10 years since I introduced Brazilian Jiu Jitsu to Korea. I am happy to report that it is generally healthy and growing strong. There are, however, also many charlatans who try to take advantage of BJJ’s popularity. There are fakes and liars at every belt level, often running their own academies. I have never once challenged any of them or otherwise interfered in their businesses. They never directly impacted me, and I felt that the internet (and their protruding stomachs) would be enough for most people to figure out that they were not legitimate.

A couple of days ago, however, I publicly challenged Mickey Choi to a jiu jitsu match. Let me explain what led me to this decision. I first met Mickey Choi when he visited my school several months ago as a WHITE BELT. Of course, my better blue belts and all my purple belts completely destroyed him on the mat, but they still could tell he had previous training. When they directly asked him about his background, he lied and said he had done some no-gi, but had absolutely no training/rank in gi jiu jitsu. A few months later he opened an academy and had photos of himself all over the internet wearing a gi and black belt. Unlike the liars mentioned above, I take both of these actions very personally and very seriously.

Despite all of the above, I still never once confronted Mickey Choi, directly or otherwise. He was being savaged on the internet for the phony that almost everyone knows he is, so I felt no need to make it any more personal than he already had. One brave reporter wrote a story detailing all the testimony given by all those who know Mickey Choi in America and Asia. It was quite thorough and good. But Mickey sued him, getting Dave Hagon to claim that he got a black belt from some mysterious “Fabio” (no, the genius Korean policeman did not require even a last name for Mickey to win this case), and that Dave had in turn given Mickey a black belt. The reporter then had to write a retraction.

In the midst of all of this, Mickey and his associates (the names changed but the IP addresses often did not) began writing lies about how he handled my students, and how I myself, frustrated at not being able to deal with him, hit him in the face. This was the third, and most personal, set of lies. The facts are these. He wore a white belt. As such, many of my students, as per my standing instructions, took it rather easy on him. When he was spastic and rough, they thought it was due to lack of skill and knowledge. And while they did tap him, they did so in a very gentle manner, obviously treating him like a beginner and a customer. Had he worn a black belt, things would have been very different. They would have all felt quite comfortable going much harder with him, and he would have been beaten much worse than he was.

Because of the very personal nature of Mickey’s lies and insults, and because he chose to bring the police into this matter, I simply challenged him to a special match at an upcoming tournament. He responded that he would fight me, but not at a tournament associated with my team. Of course, many “netizens” suggested he simply opt for no time limits or points, with which I agreed, but he found a way to back out, saying he needed a more neutral location. When a reporter contacted me, I simply said that location has nothing to do with jiu jitsu skill, and that I would fight Mickey in his own school. Foolishly, Mickey felt the need to impress the reporter, and said, on the record, that he would fight gi, no-gi, or MMA rules. I jumped on this and suggested 10 minutes of each in the following order: gi, no-gi, MMA. When the reporter asked why that order, I told him that I wanted Mickey to take all three beatings, and that if we began with MMA, the day would probably end a bit too soon for Mickey to fully realize the error of his ways.

Mickey called me four times in the next 15 minutes, obviously shaken, and kept changing the dates due to some upcoming business trip. I simply told him to choose the date. Just like the location, I do not want to give him a single excuse for the beating he will take if he shows for this fight. I honestly do not believe he will, but I will train hard anyway. We are now tentatively set for April 4, though he is to call me on March 25, when he returns from his business trip, to finalize. We will each bring one person, we will each film the entirety of the event, and the film can and will be made public. I have all this recorded in telephone conversations between Mickey and me. Learning much from my friends in the US who have dealt with Mickey, and from my own brief but distasteful brush with him here in Korea, I am not leaving any room for his excuses and lies. This has already been reported in the Korean press, so Mickey can now either fight—and be crushed 3 times on video—or he can back out, which will also settle the matter of his credentials for anyone who is objective about this matter.

Yours,

John M. Frankl