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  1. Kung-Fu Joe is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/09/2007 3:16pm


     Style: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow Warrior
    In response to cyrijl, I'm not sure that techniques which break a persons elbow/wrist/fingers are allowed in BJJ/Judo, etc are they?
    You're kidding, right? Nearly every joint lock has the potential to break the joint in question. That's why they hurt, and that's why they work. Ever seen an armbar, before?

    One of the most famous fights of the 20th century-- Helio Gracie versus Masahiko Kimura-- ended after the Japanese judo practitioner broke Gracie's arm with a gyaku ude-garami. The move has been known as a "Kimura" lock ever since.

    The videos appear to be examples of applications and areas to apply pressure to an attacker, slowed down for the video. It's totally pointless to show techniques like that at full speed because no-one is going to be able to pick it up.
    No. First, you show the technique slowly, and broken into parts, to make it easy to learn. Then you show the technique at full speed. If you can't show the technique at full speed, the technique is flawed.

    The "too deadly" excuse will not get you very far on these forums.

    --Joe
  2. cyrijl is offline
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    Light Heavyweight

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    Posted On:
    10/09/2007 3:16pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ, MT, Yoga

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    And, broken bones don't always stop fights. I broke my hand in class and still mounted my opponent before I signaled I needed to stop. In april I herniated a disk very bad and still managed to roll for about a half an hour before I realized I had no arm strength. And I am not even tough. If you expect to break some drunk guys arm and him to automatically recoil in horror, you are training for a best case scenario. And for me, that is not a good way to train.
  3. Teh El Macho is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/09/2007 3:17pm

    supporting member
     Style: creonte on hiatus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow Warrior
    In response to cyrijl, I'm not sure that techniques which break a persons elbow/wrist/fingers are allowed in BJJ/Judo, etc are they?
    All joint locks trained in BJJ/Judo/SAMBO and derivatives/similars are trained at full speed. Moreover, all joint locks break bones and ligaments. All of them.
    Read this for flexibility and injury prevention, this, this and this for supplementation, this on grip conditioning, and this on staph. New: On strenght standards, relationships and structural balance. Shoulder problems? Read this.

    My crapuous vlog and my blog of training, stuff and crap. NEW: Me, Mrs. Macho and our newborn baby.

    New To Weight Training? Get the StrongLifts 5x5 program and Rippetoe's "Starting Strength, 2nd Ed". Wanna build muscle/gain weight? Check this article. My review on Tactical Nutrition here.

    t-nation - Dissecting the deadlift. Anatomy and Muscle Balancing Videos.

    The street argument is retarded. BJJ is so much overkill for the street that its ridiculous. Unless you're the idiot that picks a fight with the high school wrestling team, barring knife or gun play, the opponent shouldn't make it past double leg + ground and pound - Osiris
  4. ViciousFlamingo is offline
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    Pingo

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    Posted On:
    10/09/2007 3:17pm


     Style: BJJ & Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by M1K3
    Fingers no, elbow...hummm... what about an armbar or a kimura or an americana? BJJ also uses some wrist locks but they don't seem to be as common, at least at the white belt (me) level.
    Kimuras and americanas (aka ude garami) are only elbow locks in judo rulebooks. ;) Those're shoulder locks.

    Getting back on topic, though, all the joint locks that are used in BJJ and judo are practiced at full speed, against resisting opponents. That's why we can have the confidence that we can apply them in a real fight.

    Oh, and Shadow Warrior, why were you posting grappling vids if you don't have grappling experience? I mean, not to be an asshole or anything, but...what were you hoping to gain?
    Last edited by ViciousFlamingo; 10/09/2007 3:20pm at .
  5. Teh El Macho is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/09/2007 3:20pm

    supporting member
     Style: creonte on hiatus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by cyrijl
    And, broken bones don't always stop fights. I broke my hand in class and still mounted my opponent before I signaled I needed to stop. In april I herniated a disk very bad and still managed to roll for about a half an hour before I realized I had no arm strength. And I am not even tough. If you expect to break some drunk guys arm and him to automatically recoil in horror, you are training for a best case scenario. And for me, that is not a good way to train.
    Correctamundo. Just look at Couture vs Gonzaga. Tim Silvia got his arm broken by Mir, and he only stopped fighting when the ref saw his arm popping (big Tim was still going to fight). Forrest Griffin also had his arm broken in one of his earliest fights and he still fought and won. There's been more than one boxer who has broken his fist and still fought the rounds.

    It's not that everybody can suck it up and keep going. But a broken bone is not a guaranteed fight stopper, not unless it's the break is massive and crippling.
    Read this for flexibility and injury prevention, this, this and this for supplementation, this on grip conditioning, and this on staph. New: On strenght standards, relationships and structural balance. Shoulder problems? Read this.

    My crapuous vlog and my blog of training, stuff and crap. NEW: Me, Mrs. Macho and our newborn baby.

    New To Weight Training? Get the StrongLifts 5x5 program and Rippetoe's "Starting Strength, 2nd Ed". Wanna build muscle/gain weight? Check this article. My review on Tactical Nutrition here.

    t-nation - Dissecting the deadlift. Anatomy and Muscle Balancing Videos.

    The street argument is retarded. BJJ is so much overkill for the street that its ridiculous. Unless you're the idiot that picks a fight with the high school wrestling team, barring knife or gun play, the opponent shouldn't make it past double leg + ground and pound - Osiris
  6. Lebell is offline
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    Just waiting for the paperboy.

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    Posted On:
    10/09/2007 3:23pm

    supporting member
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by ViciousFlamingo
    Oh, and Shadow Warrior, why were you posting grappling vids if you don't have grappling experience? I mean, not to be an asshole or anything, but...what were you hoping to gain?
    Good question, please enlighten us shadow warrior.
    then show me 3 points of the 1st vid. which you would consider a tiny bit flawed and ill break that video down for you and explain you why its sucha shitfest caught on tape.
  7. Shadow Warrior is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/09/2007 3:24pm


     Style: Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Thanks for the response. It's obvious to even a layman like myself that someone would'nt leave their arms hanging out, and that they would struggle. I take that as a given when I'm watching videos like that. But I'm also assuming that the point is that you grab the hand as soon as it reaches you, and perform the action (wrist lock or whatever) straight away, so it is one fluid movement with no stopping. The video stops and starts to show each step of the move in detail. Only a total idiot would actually try to perform the moves like that. So once you know each step, you "join them" together into one fast movement, and then use that on a sparring partner, or as part of a form.

    The criticism of the vids seems to be that it's being done slowly with no resistance, rather than the actual techniques themselves.
  8. FickleFingerOfFate is offline
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    Guess which finger is the fickle one...

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    Posted On:
    10/09/2007 3:24pm

    supporting member
     Style: Karate/ Arnis

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Shadow Warrior = Fantasy Warrior Lite?


    Last edited by FickleFingerOfFate; 10/09/2007 3:27pm at . Reason: All thumbs (of Fate)
    If you can't laugh at yourself,
    Others will be happy to do it for you. :evil6:

    The 2 most abundant elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity.


  9. M1K3 is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/09/2007 3:25pm


     Style: submission grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by ViciousFlamingo
    Kimuras and americanas (aka ude garami) are only elbow locks in judo rulebooks. ;) Those're shoulder locks.
    Picky, picky, picky. Like he would have know the difference. :bunny:
  10. ViciousFlamingo is offline
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    Pingo

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    Posted On:
    10/09/2007 3:27pm


     Style: BJJ & Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by M1K3
    Picky, picky, picky. Like he would have know the difference. :bunny:
    No, that was for you. :toothy2: Nobody escapes the Grappling Inquisition!
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