10/16/2002 3:59am, #21
Nihilanthic makes good points in that the distillation of all these techniques would produce the superior fighter.
An important addition to this, and probably the biggest reason for the outcome in the cited style exhibition matches, is that the body conditioning seen in both boxing and kickboxing etc. is what gives those practicioners the edge as opposed to any superiority in technique. In "real" situations an opponent is not going to be able to take the sort of punishment seen in boxing and kickboxing matches.
PS- Don't blast me for this, I'm new here.
10/16/2002 10:46am, #22
Nihilanthic, I know people with rubber gaurds, they can get their legs in very strange poistions but you don't need it to be able to do a triangle.
Normal flexibility is enough, it helps more if your legs are strong."You realise the transformations give a man enough strength to destroy a truck with his bare hands!?
YOU HAVE BETRAYED ME, IN THE WORST POSSIBLE MANNER!!" - KiWarrior
"Sport ? That kind of thing's not my bag baby!" - Sammy Franco
"This system was developed with the help of notible BJJ fighter Ribbon Muchado." - "Sifu" Anthony Iglesias
10/16/2002 11:50am, #239chambersGuest
I agree that mixing and cross-traininf is better than both options listed earlier.
&gt;&gt; Perhaps it was because I had an inherent skill for the science and never deviated from natural principles. - Miyamoto Musashi 1643
10/16/2002 12:47pm, #24
okay, here's my two cents. I love judo but I am particularly adverse to karate ( and TKD ). The only karate/tkd I have been exposed to offer little compatability with judo. The two don't mesh well IMHO.
Kano seemed to be particularly taken with Tenshin Shin'yo School of jujitsu for strikes, and I have heard good things about Kyokushin Karate but have no real understanding of either ones principle forms of attack. (except the knowledge that most striking in Tenshin Shin'yo are directed immediately to the area between the eyes and solar plexus, and kicking is done primarily to the groin)... and that offers no significant understanding of them.
As for Karate V. Boxing:
The reasons IMHO that boxing wins over karate usually in MMA has everything to do with conditioning and specialization. Most even psuedo successful boxers that I have met are very strong for their weight and solid as brick **** houses, so to speak, from a constant conditioning. And let's be honest, most karateka don't work out outside of the dojo at all. Little or no running, jumping, weightlifting, or calisthenics. (that's a recipe for failure right there) And the ones that do work out enjoy only marginal success inside karate competitions because those competitions aren't that physically challenging other than an issue of speed.
Training boxers workout about 15-30 hours a week if they even hope to be up to win much at all.
What are the hours at the Dojo? Even if they go everyday and spend 3 hours a day that's right at 15 hours, and of that time how much are they just walking around instructing other students? Or just working on the fine techniques of how many different punches and kicks? Very little of an actual workout goes on here. If you still think that is a significant workout I suggest you join the US Army, or the Marines and take a 20 mile field march at a forced even pace (to fast to just walk to slow to jog) with 45lbs of gear on your back, and a 3kg rifle in your hands held at the ready position the entire time. You'll find the experience enlightening as to what suffering in the name of excercise really is.
I think karate and judo are a waste of time cross training in them. The principles around them are too foreign to each other. The whole way of moving is different; big kicks don't go over well with judo at all (you spend too much time off balance).
Unless your kicks are very low and quick (ankles, shins and perhaps groin if it's safe to venture that far north) or your opponent lacks the ability to knock you down even if you are off balance (though the latter is almost never the case unless they are already off balance themself quite badly or they are extremely fatigued).
Pretty much any significant motion of the body offers opportunity to be taken off your feet. Especially when picking up and putting down your feet, even when just taking a step much less kicking. In my opinion boxing with the myriad fouls to be used freely meshes far better with judo than karate.
Edited by - Chris_Ketchens on October 16 2002 13:16:55
Edited by - Chris_Ketchens on October 16 2002 13:18:42A lie gets half-way around the world before the truth has time to get it's pants on. - Winston Churchhill
10/16/2002 4:36pm, #25
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I didn't say you NEED a rubber guard to do a triangle, but you can do some crazy ones with a rubber guard...
And the conditioning point is also very important. Endurance is the most important thing, strength, agility, flexibility, and technique come after that. (though what follows endurance was in no particular order)
While on the conditioning subject, I'd like to know is, how do boxers/kickboxers/MMA fighters conditing their body for striking with? Shin conditioning I know of, but what is used for conditioning the hands/elbows/forearms? Heavybag without pads? bucket of sand/peas/beans/BB'S? or just Knuckle pushups?
&lt;Me&gt; John, what do you know about Zen Buddhism? &lt;John&gt; *smacks me*
&lt;John&gt; I'd have to smack you sometime...Katana, on 540 kicks: "Hang from a ceiling fan with both hands. Flail your feet out and ask people to walk into you as you hit their face."
10/16/2002 7:01pm, #26
The problem with karate in North America is that its really watered down. In Japan you get a beating. They are really fanactical about it. Some of them punch those punching boards (forget the name) till their knuckles are bloody. They really codition their hands. Mas Oyama wasnt a karate guy you would want to mess with. Not tyo mention he went up against a bull and sheared off one of its horn with a karate blow. It real balls to do that.
as for judo you need to find good intructors that will teach you the real stuff. One notible instructor is Rod Sacharnoski www.jukokai.com/index.htm At least he teaches the older form of judo. Not the olympic sport style. I would only cross train in Mas Oyamas karate or some combat form of judo.
PEACE!Ghost of Charles Dickens
10/17/2002 9:51am, #27
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Quote: "Some of them punch those punching boards (forget the name) till their knuckles are bloody. "
Makiwara boards. THAT is real karate. That's also where we probably got that stupid boardbreaking **** from. Some american probably thought it would be cool if it was hit so hard it would break so after finding they couldn't, they would use pine and porous concrete instead.
10/17/2002 1:31pm, #28
Dude, Freddy, you're right about needing to learn good Judo, but that Sacharnoski guy is McDojo. He's been knocked around in the "Bad Budo" section of E-budo.com for a while now.
And that's what I call REAL Ultimate Power!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"The morning glory blooms for an hour. It differs not at heart from the giant pine, which lives for a thousand years."
10/17/2002 2:58pm, #29
I have used heavy bags till my hands bled. Most people that train hard do.
Not that impressive.And that's when I figured out that tears couldn't make somebody who was dead alive again. There's another thing to learn about tears, they can't make somebody who doesn't love you any more love you again. It's the same with prayers. I wonder how much of their lives people waste crying and praying to God. If you ask me, the devil makes more sense than God does. I can at least see why people would want him around. It's good to have somebody to blame for the bad stuff they do. Maybe God's there because people get scared of all the bad stuff they do. They figure that God and the Devil are always playing this game of tug-of-war game with them. And they never know which side they're gonna wind up on. I guess that tug-of-war idea explains how sometimes, even when people try to do something good, it still turns out bad.
10/18/2002 6:05am, #309chambersGuest
If you use a heavy bag with no gloves then your knuckles always bleed. Particularly if the bag is canvas and not leather. Still, taping your hands can teach you to rely on tape for support and that is bad. Those slightly padded gloves everyone uses now are kinda cool sometimes if you are concerned about your baby soft skin. :P