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  1. It is Fake is offline
    It is Fake's Avatar

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    Posted On:
    10/08/2007 9:23pm

    staff
     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I found a thread and how could I forget. I was so hoping it wasn't this person but, I should have known.

    Here is the post with the links.

    http://www.bullshido.net/forums/show...&postcount=222
  2. Lone Wind is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/08/2007 9:45pm


     Style: Taijutsu/Grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    out of curiosity, are these special forces guys learning ONLY wing chun, or are they combining it with other "d34dly" arts?
  3. Tom Kagan is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/08/2007 9:54pm

    supporting member
     Style: Taai Si Ji Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The problem I have with links such as the ones DTT presented in that post is that they are essentially marketing material from outside the actual "police & special forces" units. As such, they are hardly unbiased accounts of what such organizations actually train.

    The only one of any merit was the Grand Ducale police site. But, that seems to make it clear it's just one seminar for their internal MA clubs which they hold for many guest instructors.

    If their police force actually "used WT", it would be reasonable to suggest there would be a club for it, but there isn't. If you look at the rest of the site, there are two officially recognized MA "clubs related to the the police": a "taijitsu ryu" club and a self defense club (coil defense?). Neither is WT.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lone Wind
    out of curiosity, are these special forces guys learning ONLY wing chun, or are they combining it with other "d34dly" arts?
    It has yet to be established independently they are learning any WT/WC/VT/... beyond an occasional seminar (as they have for many styles and instructors). But, that's not accepting the marketing at face value. :5magnify:
    Last edited by Tom Kagan; 10/08/2007 9:58pm at .
    Calm down, it's only ones and zeros.

    "Your calm and professional manner of response is really draining all the fun out of this. Can you reply more like Dr. Fagbot or something? Call me some names, mention some sand in my vagina or something of the sort. You can't expect me to come up with reasonable arguments man!" -- MaverickZ

    "Tom Kagan spins in his grave and the fucking guy isn't even dead yet." -- Snake Plissken

    My Bullshido fan club threads:
    Tom Kagan's a big hairy...
    Tom Kagan can lick my BALLS
    Tom Kagan teaches _ing __un and bigotry?
    Tom Kagan: Serious discussion here
    Lamokio asks the burning question is Tom Kagan a ***** or just cruising for some
    I'm Dave the gay Kickboxer from Manchester and I have the hots for Tom Kagan
    TOM KAGAN, OPEN ME, THE MKT ARE COMING FOR YOU ! ARE YOU MAN ENOUGH TO MEET ?
    ATTN TOM KAGAN
    World Dominator 'Kagan' in plot to lie about real Kung Fu and Martial Arts
    Tom Kagan just gave me my third negative rep in a day
    I am infatuated with Tom Kagan
    Tom Kagan is a fat balding white guy.
  4. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/08/2007 9:58pm

    staff
     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Kagan
    The problem I have with links such as the ones DTT presented in that post is that they are essentially marketing material from outside the actual "police & special forces" units. As such, they are hardly unbiased accounts of what such organizations actually train.

    The only one of any merit was the Grand Ducale police site. But, that seems to make it clear it's just one seminar for their internal MA clubs which they hold for many guest instructors.

    If their police force actually "used WT", it would be reasonable to suggest there would be a club for it, but there isn't. If you look at the rest of the site, there are two officially recognized MA "clubs related to the the police": a "taijitsu ryu" club and a self defense club (coil defense?). Neither is WT.
    Trust me I agree but, that is the only person that "tried" to provide a back up to his statement.

    It failed.
  5. Askari is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/09/2007 6:22am


     Style: BJJ, Ju-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Kagan
    2. The original UFC contracts had liability clause restrictions (not ruleset) which discouraged some high level WT/WC/... fighters from entering. (I believe the source of this comes from the WT crowd.)
    I dont want to actually spend the time to find a link to the whole sordid story, but the short version is "no, thats not it."

    There was however an attempt by Emin Bonztepe to use the UFC as a marketing tool by arranging that he would fight Royce Gracie in the first round of UFC 2 or 3. But since these early UFCs were by random draw this was not possible. EB would not enter if he was not guaranteed a first round fight vs Gracie, even though in a tournament format he would eventually have faced Gracie if he could win against the other fighters.

    But that is ancient history, all of the various letters relating to it are on the net somewhere.

    Here is a link to a page with Thank You letters to some __ing __un instructor for his teaching:

    http://members.tripod.com/~Wing_Chun/letters.html

    For example from Seal Team 2:


    From a Chief of Police:


    There are a bunch more, but they are easier to read on that site.
    "Sifu, I"m niether - I'm a fire dragon so don't **** with me!"
  6. Askari is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/09/2007 6:26am


     Style: BJJ, Ju-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    This one deserves a separate post.

    It looks like it is from the front of one of this guys books, and details how a police department adopted __ing __un as its primary training method. A quick google search confirmed the name on the letter as being real. I have sent that department an email asking if this is accurate.

    Last edited by Askari; 10/09/2007 6:31am at .
    "Sifu, I"m niether - I'm a fire dragon so don't **** with me!"
  7. Tom Kagan is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/09/2007 7:07am

    supporting member
     Style: Taai Si Ji Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Askari
    I dont want to actually spend the time to find a link to the whole sordid story, but the short version is "no, thats not it."

    There was however an attempt by Emin Bonztepe to use the UFC as a marketing tool by arranging that he would fight Royce Gracie in the first round of UFC 2 or 3. But since these early UFCs were by random draw this was not possible. EB would not enter if he was not guaranteed a first round fight vs Gracie, even though in a tournament format he would eventually have faced Gracie if he could win against the other fighters.

    But that is ancient history, all of the various letters relating to it are on the net somewhere.
    I am fully aware of this silly saga. This isn't what I am referring to, though.


    While thank you letters for teaching seminars (given out to many instructors) are interesting, the only one of note is the one from the Norfolk Police Chief. That one is definitely worthy of looking into.
    Calm down, it's only ones and zeros.

    "Your calm and professional manner of response is really draining all the fun out of this. Can you reply more like Dr. Fagbot or something? Call me some names, mention some sand in my vagina or something of the sort. You can't expect me to come up with reasonable arguments man!" -- MaverickZ

    "Tom Kagan spins in his grave and the fucking guy isn't even dead yet." -- Snake Plissken

    My Bullshido fan club threads:
    Tom Kagan's a big hairy...
    Tom Kagan can lick my BALLS
    Tom Kagan teaches _ing __un and bigotry?
    Tom Kagan: Serious discussion here
    Lamokio asks the burning question is Tom Kagan a ***** or just cruising for some
    I'm Dave the gay Kickboxer from Manchester and I have the hots for Tom Kagan
    TOM KAGAN, OPEN ME, THE MKT ARE COMING FOR YOU ! ARE YOU MAN ENOUGH TO MEET ?
    ATTN TOM KAGAN
    World Dominator 'Kagan' in plot to lie about real Kung Fu and Martial Arts
    Tom Kagan just gave me my third negative rep in a day
    I am infatuated with Tom Kagan
    Tom Kagan is a fat balding white guy.
  8. Gezere is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/09/2007 8:16am

    supporting member
     Style: Kakutogi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Lone Wind
    out of curiosity, are these special forces guys learning ONLY wing chun, or are they combining it with other "d34dly" arts?
    Heavens NO!

    What happens is there is a standard program, right now its MAC, this is standard for ALL the Army. (From regular joe to Special Forces Combat Ninja!) Now from time to time individual units will bring in someone to teach a seminar. Its extracurricular and not official. From this said invited guests will claim to have taught "Special Forces Supre Ranger Death Squad Units." In actuality there are few pple who offically were consulted to create a standard program. And Yes the Gracies are among of them.
    ______
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    RIP SOLDIER

    Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
    -Gene, GODHAND

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  9. Askari is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/09/2007 9:53am


     Style: BJJ, Ju-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Kagan
    While thank you letters for teaching seminars (given out to many instructors) are interesting, the only one of note is the one from the Norfolk Police Chief. That one is definitely worthy of looking into.
    I've sent the Norfolk Police department an email asking if they still use the Chun.

    The liability clause in UFC 1 was that you couldn't sue if you were severely injured or killed in the fight. This discouraged a lot of people.

    There is also the Hong Kong Police Chinese Wushu Club that teaches Wing Chun as its primary art. This does not mean that they only teach Chun, the site contains references to Tai Chi and other styles of Chinese Wushu.

    http://policewushu.org/

    This guy, Lok Yiu or Luo Yao (sp?) appears to have been their head instructor:

    His bio is here if anyone reads Chinese: http://www.policewushu.org/mainframe97.htm

    I've googled him and Lok Yiu passed away in 2006 but was an original student of Yip Man. So he must have had the r3al __un.
    Last edited by Askari; 10/09/2007 10:14am at .
    "Sifu, I"m niether - I'm a fire dragon so don't **** with me!"
  10. M1K3 is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/09/2007 10:23am


     Style: submission grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The Marine Corps has its own martial art program also. They had a lot of subject matter experts involved but the art is their own. I trained at one time under one of Mazza's people. Brian was a good guy who had decent skills. He talked about some tournements he had been involved in but I don't ever remember him claiming to be an NHB champion.
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