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  1. Tom Kagan is offline
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    Dark Overlord of the Bullshido Underworld

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    Posted On:
    10/06/2007 1:48pm

    supporting member
     Style: Taai Si Ji Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    It's all about the chun: Debunking or verifying claims for Wing Chun

    I know there is something to be said about arguing with people on Youtube, but this quote was in the Wing Chun Sucks video comment section and was made by a user named 'ahay321':


    WING TSUN KUNG FU USED BY police & special forces: GSG9 & SEK (Germany), NOKS (Italy), RAID (France), FBI Hostage Rescue Team & Marine Corp (USA), GIP (Luxembourg), MEK(Austria), CIA, special police units of Spain, Belgium, Austria, India, Hungary.
    WING CHUN USED BY: Hong Kong Police, Australian Federal Police & Immigration Dept, EIRS (France), Wing Chun seminars taught to: US Navy Seals, CIA, FBI & police departments.


    Can anyone provide documentation? Including the names of the people in those angencies who can be contacted for an official answer would be the most useful.
    Last edited by Tom Kagan; 10/06/2007 1:56pm at .
    Calm down, it's only ones and zeros.

    "Your calm and professional manner of response is really draining all the fun out of this. Can you reply more like Dr. Fagbot or something? Call me some names, mention some sand in my vagina or something of the sort. You can't expect me to come up with reasonable arguments man!" -- MaverickZ

    "Tom Kagan spins in his grave and the fucking guy isn't even dead yet." -- Snake Plissken

    My Bullshido fan club threads:
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  2. Dagon Akujin is offline
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    "I feel naked I was so distracted by your penis"

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    Posted On:
    10/06/2007 3:28pm


     Style: Ving Tsun

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm not sure it really matters, as the guy is using something incredibly unimportant to justify himself. From my understanding, lots of Military, LEO, etc., test out many different combat styles for short periods of time. Sure, an afternoon seminar with a Gracie is more common now-a-days, and maybe those CIA guys took a weekend course about eye-gouging in 1985, but it really doesn't mean much.

    It'd be like if I said to a girl I was trying to impress "Oh yeah?! Well, I used to own a guinee pig named Squeeker!" And she'd be all like "WTF? Why should I care?" And then I'd be like "Squeeker was a pimp, bitch." It just wouldn't make any sense or matter at all.

    Just about every art has been taught to just about every police/military group at some time, afaik.

    Dagon
  3. Askari is offline

    The Bottom Brick

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    Posted On:
    10/06/2007 8:02pm


     Style: BJJ, Ju-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Kagan
    Can anyone provide documentation? Including the names of the people in those angencies who can be contacted for an official answer would be the most useful.
    I dont have documentation, but I have met members of the HK police and at one time (1970s) WC was the chosen H2H method for that force and the basics were taught to all recruits.

    Most SpecFor units experiment, and for variety bring in a wide range of martial arts instructors. I would absolutely not be surprised if every SpecFor unit has at one time or another had a WC seminar taught to them.
    "Sifu, I"m niether - I'm a fire dragon so don't **** with me!"
  4. bujutsuboy is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/08/2007 6:19pm


     Style: Self Protection

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Military unarmed combat is almost universally shite. I would not be surprised at all if Wing Chun featured.
  5. bluceree is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/08/2007 6:50pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Wing Chun

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Many of the students at U.S. Wing Chun are SFPD cops. WC is good self defense. MMA is good sport. Athleticism will almost always prevail regardless of the art... btw, the cops and feds also have hired psychics in the past... I don't think authority figures are any less immune to bullshit. Good martial arts instruction (of any style) can be hard to find. But I must say that WC has a **** load of bullshit instructors.
  6. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/08/2007 6:57pm

    staff
     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by bluceree
    Many of the students at U.S. Wing Chun are SFPD cops. WC is good self defense. MMA is good sport. Athleticism will almost always prevail regardless of the art... btw, the cops and feds also have hired psychics in the past... I don't think authority figures are any less immune to bullshit. Good martial arts instruction (of any style) can be hard to find. But I must say that WC has a **** load of bullshit instructors.
    Notice he is asking for PROOF. Not a glowing recommendation of Wing Chun. This MABS isplease read the sticky.


    Tom you'll never get an answer. There was a chunner who provided evidence of H2H for the FBI. Turned out it was a letter thanking the guy for teaching a seminar to a specific division with in the FBI. The guy was using it to prove the entire FBI uses Wing Chun. Then a few of the agents enjoyed it and continued training. So, you know that becomes the entire FBI.
  7. bluceree is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/08/2007 7:14pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Wing Chun

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I don't think your gonna get names or addresses. My response to you is not a glowing recommendation for WC but rather I'm chiming in on the fact that 1) it's true: WC is taught to cops and feds and 2) that it doesn't mean ****. Are you just trying to create a hit list? Asking for names of cops and feds? Damned dog!
  8. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/08/2007 7:42pm

    staff
     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by bluceree
    I don't think your gonna get names or addresses. My response to you is not a glowing recommendation for WC but rather I'm chiming in on the fact that 1) it's true: WC is taught to cops and feds and 2) that it doesn't mean ****. Are you just trying to create a hit list? Asking for names of cops and feds? Damned dog!
    God, I hope you weren't trying to use slang.


    No he is asking for verification. He is trying to see if it can be backed up. Many Martial artists claim Spec. Ops, FBI, etc etc etc................ It would be nice to see an actual list that shows what is contained in said training.

    WC is good self defense. MMA is good sport.
    There should be no distinction. This is a tired old and dumb debate.
  9. Tom Kagan is offline
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    Dark Overlord of the Bullshido Underworld

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    Posted On:
    10/08/2007 8:25pm

    supporting member
     Style: Taai Si Ji Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dagon Akujin
    I'm not sure it really matters, as the guy is using something incredibly unimportant to justify himself. From my understanding, lots of Military, LEO, etc., test out many different combat styles for short periods of time. Sure, an afternoon seminar with a Gracie is more common now-a-days, and maybe those CIA guys took a weekend course about eye-gouging in 1985, but it really doesn't mean much.

    It'd be like if I said to a girl I was trying to impress "Oh yeah?! Well, I used to own a guinee pig named Squeeker!" And she'd be all like "WTF? Why should I care?" And then I'd be like "Squeeker was a pimp, bitch." It just wouldn't make any sense or matter at all.

    Just about every art has been taught to just about every police/military group at some time, afaik.

    Dagon
    IMO, the more realistic and truthful people are about what is and is not true, the less likely, they are to try and use something "incredibly unimportant" to justify what they study. That can only be a good thing for any style, IMO.


    Quote Originally Posted by It Is Fake
    There was a chunner who provided evidence of H2H for the FBI. Turned out it was a letter thanking the guy for teaching a seminar to a specific division with in the FBI. The guy was using it to prove the entire FBI uses Wing Chun. Then a few of the agents enjoyed it and continued training. So, you know that becomes the entire FBI.
    This is exactly the kind of thing which I am looking for. Of course, nutriders will use any last straw they can get their hands on to justify themselves, but take away as many as possible and they might just be in a position to look at what they do realistically.


    In fact, that reminds me ....

    There are two additional claims for the style which should be similarly discussed:

    1. Wing Chun won all its preliminaries for entering the original UFCs. (I believe the source of this comes from the TWC crowd.)

    2. The original UFC contracts had liability clause restrictions (not ruleset) which discouraged some high level WT/WC/... fighters from entering. (I believe the source of this comes from the WT crowd.)


    For #1, the only two preliminary bouts I am aware of were for Dave Levicki and Scott Baker, who both lost. Still, Keith Mazza has a mention of "qualification bouts" he fought and won (from this link) but I'm not sure what is meant by that.

    For #2, I think flat out this is a ridiculous claim. However, it might be interesting to actually get a copy of the original UFC contracts and see what they are talking about. (Of course, this still wouldn't explain why those who entered didn't have a problem with it.)


    Quote Originally Posted by bluceree
    I don't think your gonna get names or addresses. My response to you is not a glowing recommendation for WC but rather I'm chiming in on the fact that 1) it's true: WC is taught to cops and feds and 2) that it doesn't mean ****. Are you just trying to create a hit list? Asking for names of cops and feds? Damned dog!

    Names of Agencies, their contracts with outside people to teach, and their internal curriculum can be obtained in a relative straightforward fashion. This is what would be acceptable proof (or lack thereof.) If you don't have information to contribute which can help track it down, you are not adding much to this discussion and should bow out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Askari
    I dont have documentation, but I have met members of the HK police and at one time (1970s) WC was the chosen H2H method for that force and the basics were taught to all recruits.
    Interesting, though my understanding was only some HK LEOs decided to learn it because their commander was learning it, too.

    Do you know what is meant by "the basics"? That could mean anything.
    Last edited by Tom Kagan; 10/08/2007 8:35pm at . Reason: fixed url, added response to Askari's post.
    Calm down, it's only ones and zeros.

    "Your calm and professional manner of response is really draining all the fun out of this. Can you reply more like Dr. Fagbot or something? Call me some names, mention some sand in my vagina or something of the sort. You can't expect me to come up with reasonable arguments man!" -- MaverickZ

    "Tom Kagan spins in his grave and the fucking guy isn't even dead yet." -- Snake Plissken

    My Bullshido fan club threads:
    Tom Kagan's a big hairy...
    Tom Kagan can lick my BALLS
    Tom Kagan teaches _ing __un and bigotry?
    Tom Kagan: Serious discussion here
    Lamokio asks the burning question is Tom Kagan a ***** or just cruising for some
    I'm Dave the gay Kickboxer from Manchester and I have the hots for Tom Kagan
    TOM KAGAN, OPEN ME, THE MKT ARE COMING FOR YOU ! ARE YOU MAN ENOUGH TO MEET ?
    ATTN TOM KAGAN
    World Dominator 'Kagan' in plot to lie about real Kung Fu and Martial Arts
    Tom Kagan just gave me my third negative rep in a day
    I am infatuated with Tom Kagan
    Tom Kagan is a fat balding white guy.
  10. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/08/2007 8:32pm

    staff
     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Kagan


    This is exactly the kind of thing which I am looking for. Of course, nutriders will use any last straw they can get their hands on to justify themselves, but take away as many as possible and they might just be in a position to look at what they do realistically.
    I'll find the thread if I come back cranky it is your fault.


    In fact, that reminds me ....

    There are two additional claims for the style which should be similarly discussed:

    1. Wing Chun won all its preliminaries for entering the original UFCs. (I believe the source of this comes from the TWC crowd.)

    2. The original UFC contracts had liability clause restrictions (not ruleset) which discouraged some high level WT/WC/... fighters from entering. (I believe the source of this comes from the WT crowd.)
    This isn't just chun. We had it in our school as an excuse. What's worse is they claimed our fighters (yes) weren't allowed because, (OMG) we did internal arts and knew Dim Mak.

    For #1, the only two preliminary bouts I am aware of were for Dave Levicki and Scott Baker, who both lost. Still, Keith Mazza has a mention of "qualification bouts" he fought and won (from url="http://www.traditionalwingchun.com/articles.php"]this link[/url]) but I'm not sure what is meant by that.

    For #2, I think flat out this is a ridiculous claim. However, it might be interesting to actually get a copy of the original UFC contracts and see what they are talking about. (Of course, this still wouldn't explain why those who entered didn't have a problem with it.)
    Ha ha I've heard that and have always wondered.
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