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  1. Bolverk is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/09/2007 1:16pm


     Style: Jeet Kune Do

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I don't know, they seem to have alot of empty hand training:

    • Mano Mano, hand to hand combat methodologies
    • Kadena De Mano chain of hands, close quarters, continuous, hand to hand combat tactics
    • Hubud Lubud, to tie and untie, continuous trapping methods
    • Trankada, joint locking and breaking techniques
    • Pangamut, mano mano, Pamuok, empty-hand techniques
    • Kino mutai, a sub-section of Pangamut that specializes in biting and eye-gouges
    • Panganaw, disarming techniques
    • Panantukan or Panuntukan, Filipino kickboxing
    • Pananjakman and Sipat, low-line kicking components
    • Suntukan, Filipino Boxing, empty-hand striking techniques
    • Dumog, Filipino grappling methods with an emphasis on disabling or control of the opponent by manipulation of the head and neck
    Knowing it is not enough, we must apply.
    Willing is not enough, we must do.

    Never approach a Bull from the front, a Horse from the rear, or a Fool from any direction!

    He who dares not offend cannot be honest. -- Thomas Payne
  2. Dr._Tzun_Tzu is offline
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    It's pretty beat up, but it is a complete copy....

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    Posted On:
    10/09/2007 5:02pm

    supporting member
     Style: EBMAS WT/ Latosa Concepts

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Sabateur
    I don't know much about FMA, beyond that they exist and many martial artists cross train into Kali after something else. So mind if I ask a few questions?

    1) The sticks/weapons are used as a 'metaphor' through which technique is taught. Does this mean that what you learn with stick translates into striking/ other techniques when not armed?

    2) Do you ever spar without weapons then in class or in tournaments?

    3) If so, how well does it translate? Do you need to cross train in something that doesn't use weapons as a vehicle to teach unarmed combat?

    Suggestions for links or sources I can read on to know more about differences about arnis, kali etc. I am searching now, and there's a lot of stuff, but if you already know of sites I'd appreciate it.

    Thanks.
    1)yes, but alot of people are not taught in this fashion

    2)yes. In fact you MUST spar without weapons to go full power, unless you like wearing massive body armor.

    3)see #1. It transitions very well if you are taught it as a concept. If you are taught as specific weapons only, then it doesn't translate, and you end up having to cross train.

    example: if you strike with a stick and they duck and close in, then your strike will hit with the butt instead of the tip. Did you learn to hit so that you can change the power to the butt or did you learn tip, blade edge, and butt strike all seperately? That would be a transition within the weapon, then you can learn to transition this to without the weapon.

    You can do strikes and then take the stick away and pound focus mitts with the same strikes. The power comes only from the body and limbs so you should be able to do this, otherwise you are dependant on some specialized weapos technique and ou can not transtion.

    A rapier has a cage around the hand used for mashing which is the same as a punch right?

    Rene Latosa teaches this way, look him up or get his videos, he just put out a great DVD set.
    Last edited by Dr._Tzun_Tzu; 10/09/2007 5:05pm at .

    "If anything is gained from this, it should be you both wanting to get better so you can make up for how crappy you are now." KidSpatula about the Sirc vs DTT Gong Sau Event
    Until the Bulltube is fixed:
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  3. Ryno is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/09/2007 6:47pm


     Style: FMA, Jujutsu/Judo/SAMBO

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    1. Yes.
    2. Yes, we spar in class. Not many of our guys compete regularly in empty-hand though. Most seem to be in class for the weapons.
    3. It does translate fairly well. We mostly translate it to boxing, in which the mechanics of many of the stick strikes are very similar to empty hand strikes. A number one is similar to a right cross, and overhand is similar to a downward hooking thrust (#12 in our system), etc.

    The footwork we use for stickfighting is almost identical to boxing, except for the fact that we use a slightly more extended/deeper stance which helps with stability when swinging a weapon. We also might fight in a southpaw stance at long range, to put our weapon hand to the forward side. When we fight empty hand, we just shorten it up a tad and pretty much stand in a conventional boxer's stance.

    The idea is that instead of learning completely differenct systems of footwork and body mechanics for weapons and empty handed striking, that instead they will be the same. So learning the motor skills for the weapon will translate to the fist with minimal adjustment. It works fairly well.

    Of course, since we focus the majority of our time on weapons (60-90% in our club, depending), we don't spend as much time doing empty hand work as would say a kickboxing club. It's not that the techniques are not good, it's just that FMA folks tend to practice them less. Even with the motor skills translation from weapons, someone that just specializes in punching/kicking/throwing people will tend to be better at it than someone who only devotes a portion of their training to this.

    Still, I'd tend to say that our stickfighters can box better than most boxers can stickfight. It just depends on what you want to focus on.
    Last edited by Ryno; 10/09/2007 6:52pm at .
  4. SuperCollider is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/09/2007 10:29pm


     Style: Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Its confusing. One problem with Arnis/Kali/Eskrima is the 3 names combined all really speak of the same thing. This tends to make people use FMA instead, then you get asked what FMA means and you say Philipino Martial Arts and the confusion continues because the spelling is actually Filipino Martial Arts. I've seen websites even talk about Filipina Martial Arts which would be read to mean women only. Which isnt the case. In FMA you will often come across Spanish or Tagalog terms. There are also self-proclaimed masters, with no documentation like any other system.

    Similarly there are many myths. For example, Kali is said to be an ancient art Lapu Lapu used to defeat Magellan. This myth has been documented here in the history section. Ancient 'Kali' doesnt really exist, and is more about using a naming convention used to differentiate it from Eskrima and Arnis. I mean Kali Ilistrissimo was all about the stick, where as Kali was supposed to refer to the bladed art of the ancient nobles of the Philippine archipelago. Many people havent heard of this kali style yet have heard of Kali Inosanto (Dan Inosanto's brand of kali). Who would be the most famous FMAer on the planet. Today Arnis/Kali/Eskrima all means the same.

    Unfortunately all the FMA info gets confusing fast. In fact some FMA schools are just crap, with complicated drills and forms (eg. modified from japanese sword forms), but dont ever spar and think the stick is deadly and the stick is the same as the sword etc. Where as the better schools will treat a stick as a stick, spar with it, not have forms but have interactive drills for the learning component.

    There's huge differences in the approach FMA schools use. Some never spar, some do point sparring, some will do full contact padded stick, some will do full contact in turtle shell armour, then you got the dog brothers who will sometimes use protection to cover the best target areas, but use regular sticks. There's often a lot of my Arnis is better than yours etc. yet people feel they cant really "do" it on eachother in the modern world so it adds to some bitchiness like you see in "the deadly arts". Therefore its always good to see any kind of full contact that can allow different people/styles to come together and respectfully sort things out.

    I am all for a sports-based model of competition. Arnis was an attempt to make Arnis/Kali/Eskrima more sports oriented, more logical etc. Its been taught a lot in Universities around the Philippines. However, just look at the split groups of Modern Arnis today. You will see the full spectrum of credibility within Arnis/Kali/Eskrima.

    I think though of the weapon arts it is the best way to quickly learn to defend and attack with a one handed weapon about the size of a baton. Similarly the focus on footwork, ranges and body position and following up is a common thread which unites Arnis/Kali/Eskrima and it is probably respected mostly for its ability to augment the knowledge of an MAer quickly. Most advanced empty hand stylists end up wishing they had some knowledge of defending using a weapon - its a good equaliser (esp. versus multiples or when investigating that middle of the night bump).

    A final reason is that in my opinion the business management skills in the FMA community I have been involved with was quite poor and I ended up leaving the organisation as a result of it. Eg. people were graded to rank without attending a grading. Advertising for events wasn't done. Too many people were being unrealistic about the art and how to promote and organise it.
    Last edited by SuperCollider; 10/09/2007 10:32pm at .
  5. variance is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/09/2007 10:36pm


     Style: EF UM A

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr._Tzun_Tzu
    1)yes, but alot of people are not taught in this fashion

    2)yes. In fact you MUST spar without weapons to go full power, unless you like wearing massive body armor.

    3)see #1. It transitions very well if you are taught it as a concept. If you are taught as specific weapons only, then it doesn't translate, and you end up having to cross train.

    example: if you strike with a stick and they duck and close in, then your strike will hit with the butt instead of the tip. Did you learn to hit so that you can change the power to the butt or did you learn tip, blade edge, and butt strike all seperately? That would be a transition within the weapon, then you can learn to transition this to without the weapon.

    You can do strikes and then take the stick away and pound focus mitts with the same strikes. The power comes only from the body and limbs so you should be able to do this, otherwise you are dependant on some specialized weapos technique and ou can not transtion.

    A rapier has a cage around the hand used for mashing which is the same as a punch right?

    Rene Latosa teaches this way, look him up or get his videos, he just put out a great DVD set.
    First off

    #1 You appear to have learned FMA with Wing Chun.
    not FMA by itself specifically.

    I don't think your really qualified to talk about how most people are trained unless you've been to/experienced alot of FMA specific training that isn't attached to another system.


    #2 and I sincerely disagree. You can go full power with padded sticks (SMAK sticks) or Lighter sticks without armor.


    #3 It depends on your teacher. but this guy shouldn't really talk because he took Escrima with WC. Naturally it would have isolated the Escrima from the WC work. Modern Arnis, Pekiti Tirsia Kali and Doce Pares(The major school franchise/styles in FMA) all teach the transitions and the whole learning through angles/stick concepts.
  6. variance is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/09/2007 10:50pm


     Style: EF UM A

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by SuperCollider
    **Snip**

    A final reason is that in my opinion the business management skills in the FMA community I have been involved with was quite poor and I ended up leaving the organisation as a result of it. Eg. people were graded to rank without attending a grading. Advertising for events wasn't done. Too many people were being unrealistic about the art and how to promote and organise it.
    I know exactly what you are talking about. Many of the practitioners/leaders were just guys who practiced the art adn were really good at it. but sucked at promoting. sucked at running a organization and sucked at business.... ::cough:: Modern Arnis ::cough::

    While others who end up taking over are egotistic, political, and inept. The definition of McDojo.

    It's true. there are no standards. no consensus on training. no consensus on curriculum.
    but that's the same with any other martial art.

    I think the thing is that FMA isn't developed that well in a marketable way like Judo was.
    It's still in the whole Japanese Jujitsu phase as there are other schools of thought and different claims.

    Modern Arnis was a somewhat failed attempt to evolve/refine the FMA (like JMA with Jujitsu to Judo)

    IMHO Failings of the Modern Arnis system:

    Emphasis on Forms for belt testing. (or hell, having any forms at all. If anything. forms should just be on a DVD. given to students so they can have something to practice with at home. Class should just be drills, and acquiring techniques)

    Doce Pares is another attempt to reach a consensus if I remember right.

    so basically all we can do is classify them all together as FMA because in the end they all have the same defining characteristics. The only difference is emphasis and training methods. and of course rhetoric/semantics (You should know why it is mixed spanish/tagalog terminology if you had experience in the FMA community)

    Knife - Sayoc Kali / Pekiti Tirsia Kali to a lesser extent.
    Stick - Dog Brothers / Kali Illustrimo
    Attempt to cover all bases - Doce Pares, Modern Arnis, Escrima,

    Training methods differ of course by teacher.
    as for stealing from japanese sword techniques... I've never personalled witnessed or seen any of that. Id be interesting to know what system you think does that.

    Some teach you stickfighting as a stick. then bladefighting using the stick as a blade. It's a good idea to learn both and it doesn't hurt. One emphasizes harder impact, more chamber, other emphasizes slice/hack/striking through and pulling back.

    They all teach knife techs. They all use similar footworks and the angles/muscle memory concept.

    In other words, FMA has never really had a "Gracie Family" or a "Ed Parker" or someone who was able to organize, administrate a organization that could popularize/spread the art around.

    Actually.. we do have the Dog Brothers... They've been doing a good job so far but its not to the extent that can be compared to Jigoro Kano's introduction of Judo, The Gracie's introduction of BJJ or Ed Parker's administration/establishing/popularizing Kenpotastic schools across the US.

    On one hand. I prefer it this way. Less McDojos we have teaching FMA. the better.
    I wouldn't want to see shitty FMA schools pop up like we see fake MMA/BJJ/MT schools pop up.
    Last edited by variance; 10/09/2007 11:17pm at .
  7. SuperCollider is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/09/2007 11:10pm


     Style: Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by variance
    as for stealing from japanese sword techniques... I've never personalled witnessed or seen any of that. Id be interesting to know what system you think does that.
    Its not a system per se. Basically I got shown an "Arnis form," which I memorised before being told it was a modification of a japanese sword form. It was just a basic form for the sake of having a form for beginners. The guy I learned it from had a modern arnis background but also a long background in the japanese martial arts. It was just a hoop to jump through I suppose to get in the good books. You get that a lot in FMA, as teaching is often dominated by a "Guro". IMO sometimes people are really looking for a guru.

    However, on a slight tangent Modern Arnis was influence by small circle juijitsu even Dillman had some influence, however how much is uncertain. Here's a quote and link:

    "There he met Wally Jay, George Dillman, and other martial artists who influenced his development of the art of Modern Arnis."
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_Arnis

    Similarly, I learned filipino kickboxing as part of the empty hands curriculum. No doubt this was influenced by filipino karate, boxing and muay thai. The Philippines are a natural melting point for ideas.
    Last edited by SuperCollider; 10/09/2007 11:13pm at .
  8. variance is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/09/2007 11:32pm


     Style: EF UM A

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by SuperCollider
    Its not a system per se. Basically I got shown an "Arnis form," which I memorised before being told it was a modification of a japanese sword form. It was just a basic form for the sake of having a form for beginners. The guy I learned it from had a modern arnis background but also a long background in the japanese martial arts. It was just a hoop to jump through I suppose to get in the good books. You get that a lot in FMA, as teaching is often dominated by a "Guro". IMO sometimes people are really looking for a guru.

    However, on a slight tangent Modern Arnis was influence by small circle juijitsu even Dillman had some influence, however how much is uncertain. Here's a quote and link:

    "There he met Wally Jay, George Dillman, and other martial artists who influenced his development of the art of Modern Arnis."
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_Arnis

    Similarly, I learned filipino kickboxing as part of the empty hands curriculum. No doubt this was influenced by filipino karate, boxing and muay thai. The Philippines are a natural melting point for ideas.
    Get in the good books? not familiar with that terminology.
    and yes. FMA systems are dominated by a strong personality usually.
    just as are other MAs to an extent. (Gracie Family in BJJ, Dan Inosanto for JKD, Cheung/Boztepe in WC.)

    in FMA alone there is Leo Gaje, the Doce Pares guys, Dan Inosanto and the Dog Brothers.

    Those people are the ones who try to define or organize a art usually.

    I echo your sentiment on useless forms/kata.

    The influence from Jay's small circle jujitsu was mainly the standing joint destructions and locks in modern Arnis. as well as "Buno" or "Dance of Pain" or something along those lines which is basically a two-man compliant drill where you flow from one lock/submission/destruction, to the next.

    IMHO it was fairly pointless although the claim was that you would become familiar with the leverages/balances and positions by "flowing" through them continiously and going from one to another in different patterns or from different positions.

    Wally Jay might also be responsible for some of the Judo takedowns in modern arnis although some of them might have already existed in FMA. but that line is a bit blurred.

    As for Dillman's influence. It was more of a business arrangement then anything else. They did seminars together (Presas, Wally Jay and Dillman) It was a networking arrangement and from what i recall. This began before Dillman went off the deep end into magic chi land.

    The only dillman influence you will see pressure point wise is the pain compliance after a lock or submission. or a pressure point applied with the "punyo" of a stick to a pressure point after a lock for pain compliance or a strike to one for a disarm once in a superior position.

    Modern Arnis would be much better if it eliminated the forms or kept them for solo/homework and kept the class focused on drills/acquiring techniques/skills and then last part of the class as a randori-esque freeplay DBMA style.


    I agree in the PI being a melting pot. Immigration waves coming from Taiwan, Austronesia, Malaysia, Japan and then Spanish for a smaller degree. Your absolutely right. and I think Modern Arnis' empty hand striking is visibly influenced by shotokan (I also believe Presas held a black belt in Shotokan as well?) we did have the thai low kicks, kyoukushin cutting down low kick, and also the low line knee/ankle kicks like in wing chun.

    I plan on switching to a Pekiti Tirsia curriculum so I can compare the two. I've had four years in a Modern Arnis derivative (My guro didn't change a whole lot of the curriculum from what I've seen. he's old guard and old school. one of Presas' original students from the PI before he got Modern Arnis completely established.)

    The PTK guys I've met, to me seemed alot sharper at lower belts than Modern Arnis of equal rank but the senior PTK guys I've met weren't as sharp as the senior Modern Arnis guys that I met. (but thats probably cuz the senior ones I know of... are old old school)
    Last edited by variance; 10/09/2007 11:37pm at .
  9. selfcritical is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/10/2007 10:35am


     Style: Pekiti, ARMA, other stuff

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by variance
    Get in the good books? not familiar with that terminology.
    and yes. FMA systems are dominated by a strong personality usually.
    just as are other MAs to an extent. (Gracie Family in BJJ, Dan Inosanto for JKD, Cheung/Boztepe in WC.)

    in FMA alone there is Leo Gaje, the Doce Pares guys, Dan Inosanto and the Dog Brothers.

    Those people are the ones who try to define or organize a art usually.

    I echo your sentiment on useless forms/kata.

    The influence from Jay's small circle jujitsu was mainly the standing joint destructions and locks in modern Arnis. as well as "Buno" or "Dance of Pain" or something along those lines which is basically a two-man compliant drill where you flow from one lock/submission/destruction, to the next.

    IMHO it was fairly pointless although the claim was that you would become familiar with the leverages/balances and positions by "flowing" through them continiously and going from one to another in different patterns or from different positions.

    Wally Jay might also be responsible for some of the Judo takedowns in modern arnis although some of them might have already existed in FMA. but that line is a bit blurred.

    As for Dillman's influence. It was more of a business arrangement then anything else. They did seminars together (Presas, Wally Jay and Dillman) It was a networking arrangement and from what i recall. This began before Dillman went off the deep end into magic chi land.

    The only dillman influence you will see pressure point wise is the pain compliance after a lock or submission. or a pressure point applied with the "punyo" of a stick to a pressure point after a lock for pain compliance or a strike to one for a disarm once in a superior position.

    Modern Arnis would be much better if it eliminated the forms or kept them for solo/homework and kept the class focused on drills/acquiring techniques/skills and then last part of the class as a randori-esque freeplay DBMA style.


    I agree in the PI being a melting pot. Immigration waves coming from Taiwan, Austronesia, Malaysia, Japan and then Spanish for a smaller degree. Your absolutely right. and I think Modern Arnis' empty hand striking is visibly influenced by shotokan (I also believe Presas held a black belt in Shotokan as well?) we did have the thai low kicks, kyoukushin cutting down low kick, and also the low line knee/ankle kicks like in wing chun.

    I plan on switching to a Pekiti Tirsia curriculum so I can compare the two. I've had four years in a Modern Arnis derivative (My guro didn't change a whole lot of the curriculum from what I've seen. he's old guard and old school. one of Presas' original students from the PI before he got Modern Arnis completely established.)

    The PTK guys I've met, to me seemed alot sharper at lower belts than Modern Arnis of equal rank but the senior PTK guys I've met weren't as sharp as the senior Modern Arnis guys that I met. (but thats probably cuz the senior ones I know of... are old old school)
    What area are you in?
  10. Bolverk is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/10/2007 1:00pm


     Style: Jeet Kune Do

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    If you really want to understand how the names developed in the Philippines, you should read Modern Arnis, Stick Fighting, by Remey Amador Presas, the father of Modern Arnis and the only practitioner I am aware of that had a Phd and taught the history and the art in college.

    Kali comes from Kalis, which means blade. However, Kali was the common name until the arrival of the Spaniards. Since the Spaniards were scared to death of the Kali masters, they outlawed Kali. The Filipinos responded by renaming their arts in each region and took to practicing with sticks. That is why you have different names, because of the regional seperation of the tribes. Some of the more popular names were Arnis, Escrima and Sinawali. Sinawali has since come to describe a method of weaving the sticks in a pattern, but it was a regional style at one point.

    Also, depending on the region, you could have varying lengths of stick. The most common are what we see today, but by no means was this the only lengths. Some use a short stick and a long stick, to simulate Espada y Daga. Some use a single stick. Some use long sticks. Since, in the Philippines, most of these were family taught arts, there were a great deal of variance from region to region, with some islands having a large diversity of style.

    While I was there in August, I found a nice school in Davao. I will be returning there in July and take up training with them. And believe me, few, if any, have heard of Danny Inosanto over there, with the exception of some of the martial artists in Arnis, which is the more common name there now, or at least in the south.

    Filipinos love martial arts. They are very good at them too. I look forward to going back and training with them this coming summer. I will let you folks know what I experience while I am there.

    Oh, and as a final note, the Death of Magellan was well documented by a man named Antonio Pigafetta. So there is little doubt as to how Magellan met his end. He should not have listened to Lapu-Lapu's enemies, Rajah Humabon of Cebu and Datu Zula.

    Here is the narrative provided by Antonio Pigafetta:
    "When morning came, forty-nine of us leaped into the water up to our thighs, and walked through water for more than two cross-bow flights before we could reach the shore. The boats could not approach nearer because of certain rocks in the water. The other eleven men remained behind to guard the boats. When we reached land, [the natives] had formed in three divisions to the number of more than one thousand five hundred people. When they saw us, they charged down upon us with exceeding loud cries... The musketeers and crossbow-men shot from a distance for about a half-hour, but uselessly... Recognising the captain, so many turned upon him that they knocked his helmet off his head twice... A native hurled a bamboo spear into the captain's face, but the latter immediately killed him with his lance, which he left in the native's body. Then, trying to lay hand on sword, he could draw it out but halfway, because he had been wounded in the arm with a bamboo spear. When the natives saw that, they all hurled themselves upon him. One of them wounded him on the left leg with a large cutlass, which resembles a scimitar, only being larger. That caused the captain to fall face downward, when immediately they rushed upon him with iron and bamboo spears and with their cutlasses, until they killed our mirror, our light, our comfort, and our true guide. When they wounded him, he turned back many times to see whether we were all in the boats. Thereupon, beholding him dead, we, wounded, retreated, as best we could, to the boats, which were already pulling off."
    Last edited by Bolverk; 10/10/2007 1:06pm at .
    Knowing it is not enough, we must apply.
    Willing is not enough, we must do.

    Never approach a Bull from the front, a Horse from the rear, or a Fool from any direction!

    He who dares not offend cannot be honest. -- Thomas Payne
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