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  1. jdinca is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/15/2007 7:26pm


     Style: Chinese Kenpo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by ninjafetus
    jdinca>

    I think the prevailing opinion on Bullshido is not that martial arts cannot teach honor and discipline. Any structured activity, especially those where your physical actions can affect others, will teach discipline and respect. For many, that is the most beneficial result of their training.

    However, a martial art is defined as an art of fighting. For one to claim that a martial art requires such secondary benefits is seen as condescending to those adults who already have morality, integrity, etc. in their lives, and pursue a martial art strictly for the fighting aspect. Furthermore, when a school claims that they have "teh r33l" martial arts, when they have no practical fighting application whatsoever, and presume to lecture others on what is lacking in their schools, people tend to get a little pissed.
    Martial Arts: Arts of war. Does training for war include instilling discipline in those that are going to do the fighting?

    It's been brought up more times that I can count on this site that a school focusing on "mind, body, spirit" instead of just "body" is a western idea. My response is that the Chinese teachers I know in this country and in China consider all three to be important in martial arts. In Japan, did samurai training involve honor and integrity? Do TMA schools in Japan just teach a student how to fight? Or is discipline, honor and respect part of what is expected from a student?

    If you just want to learn how to fight, great. But don't say that all martial arts should teach is just how to fight because that brush is a little too broad. The converse is also true, just because a school only teaches how to fight doesn't mean it's not teaching martial arts, it just has a different, more narrowly defined focus and that's okay too.
  2. Youzhi is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/15/2007 8:01pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Isshin Ryu Karate

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I agree with the general consensus that dicipline is something that has to be figured out on your own, not shoved down your throat by some old "master". Anyone can repeat a series of principles that they got a speech about, but living a disciplined life comes from hard work, dedication and understanding, not some dude saying "because I told you so".

    As for the original argument, all the people I've met that cross-train in martial arts seem to have more of an anything-goes attitude and are more open and less arrogant. My friends that specialise(Aikido...) tend to be really arrogant and prone to lectures. My Aikido buddies talk about non-aggressive fighting all the time, but then they go out and kill bunnies for fun.

    It's just anecdotal evidence from a noob, but there's my two cents.
  3. twKoxinga is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/15/2007 8:05pm


     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think that most people are trying to say

    A Martial Art HAS to teach how to fight
    whereas its optional whether it wants to teach morals or not, however these shouldn't affect the training in how to fight effectively
  4. bushi_no_ki is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/15/2007 9:44pm


     Style: TMA, MMA

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think a martial art will instill honor and discipline because the guy that keeps breaking the rules and hurting other people, or is completely disrespectful will get his ass kicked by the people he routinely hurts.
  5. chingythingy is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/15/2007 11:39pm


     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    How the hell did this thread go from discussing arrogance in MMA to being focused on teaching "honor" and "discipline" to 7 year olds in McDojoland?

    The amount of gayness on this thread has rapidly increased and is going out the roof.

    If you want your 7 year old to grow up gay and arrogant, dress him up in pajamas and have him learn about "honor" and "discipline" from his "sensei".

    If you want him to learn how to fight put him in a judo school or BJJ school early on, and pick up striking later. Then you'll teach him the "honor" and "discipline" of avoiding BS McDojos.
  6. bushi_no_ki is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/16/2007 12:04am


     Style: TMA, MMA

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Chingy, I would think wrestling or a basic kickboxing class. KISS, so the kids form the solid foundation but don't overwork their developing bodies/brains. Remember that young kids don't have the maturity level to process all the information a complex martial art can contain, nor the physical maturity to properly use all the techniques.
  7. jdinca is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/16/2007 9:31am


     Style: Chinese Kenpo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by twKoxinga
    I think that most people are trying to say

    A Martial Art HAS to teach how to fight
    whereas its optional whether it wants to teach morals or not, however these shouldn't affect the training in how to fight effectively
    Bingo!
  8. ninjafetus is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/16/2007 12:43pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: tkd, bjj

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    jdinca: Reread my original post to you. I agree with what you said. In terms of logic, learning to fight is necessary and sufficient to define a martial arts school. Honor and discipline are welcome secondary benefits, although not required.

    This topic does relate to a conversation on arrogance from MMA, by the assertian from some TMAists that MMA fighters are "arrogant" because their martial arts do not teach honor or discipline. The MMA fighter's assertion is that although learning these qualities can be seperate from their art, it does not necessarily imply arrogance (for example, a MMA fighter could learn his discipline and honor from the military, or his church).

    I feel like I'm using more words then necessary to say what's already been said. Such is the internet. :/
  9. jdinca is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/16/2007 1:18pm


     Style: Chinese Kenpo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    ninjafetus>

    Yeah, I knew you were agreeing with me but your post gave me a reason to blather on a little bit more. ;)
  10. dwak is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/16/2007 1:31pm


     Style: Wrestling, bjj, judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by jdinca
    Martial Arts: Arts of war. Does training for war include instilling discipline in those that are going to do the fighting?
    While I do agree that discipline is beneficial in training for war that doesn't mean it is included in Martial arts. martial arts are the arts of Mars not the arts of war, and yes there is a difference. Mars was not the only god of war, well he was but not the only diety presiding over war, the brutality, bloodlust, individual prowess, and ability in combat were the domain of Mars. the strategy, tactics, discipline, teamwork, etc. were the domain of Minerva, and to my knowledge, though I may be wrong, were not what was meant by martial art when the term was first used, military arts, I believe, is different.
    That said I do believe that respect and discipline are usually side effects of that type of training and provided they don't get in the way of learning to fight the isn't any reason why they can't be included, as long as they aren't the ridiculus version of respect and discipline I frequently see coming out of many 'martial artists'.

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