The End of the Original Karate of Japan

**Goju - Joe** · Posted On: 10/04/2007 5:07pm

Originally Posted by Bolverk

And Slomanski made the Japanese realize that size does matter, and techniques had to be adjusted to compensate for the generation of power. What is so vague?

In what way did karate - with a specific example using punches for example, did Karate change after Slomanski?

And don't say "they learned to generate more power" that doesn't mean anything.

What specifically about the mechanics and techniques and training methodology did the change to generate more power?

Specifics we need specifics.

**Bolverk** · Posted On: 10/04/2007 5:20pm

Originally Posted by Warlock

I don't think how much he contributed to that realization is vague, or even insignificant, so much as the result you are claiming. The whole "Changing the face of Asian Martial Arts" bit seemed a bit over-the-top to me.

I can see how the realization that size matters was an important revelation to Japanese Karate-ka, but you don't really show how it actually changed the fundamentals of the art of Japanese Karate itself, let alone Asian Martial arts as a whole.

From what you posted, all it seems that all they did was introduce weight classes and eliminations. That, in my admittedly sad, McDojo tainted experience, is generally an avoidance strategy that merely sidesteps the issue of size, rather than adapt to accomodate it.

How did the art itself change to accomodate this new challenge? Did thier martial arts philosophy change? And how did this affect how they trained and fought? What techniques did they adopt/change/drop in order for smaller combatants to better deal with larger stronger opponents? (Besides not fighting them altogether?)

Not trying to give you are hard time, just hoping to clarify...

I think the statement by Shigeru Oyama probably summerizes it best. You have to generate much more power to effect a 220 lb man then you do a 160 lb man. One would think that they started using more hip rotation, but I have nothing specific, only what people have said.

We have to remember, the event was not highly covered here in the United States, so there is little documentation to go on. Japan would surely have changed their approach, but would not have publicized it to anyone at that time. So the significant change was that Japan had to adjust both technique and attitude to deal with the larger opponents they were beginning to see and thought they would have no troubles in defeating.

Heck, we know that Karate has changed even since the introduction of Taekwondo, adding many of the reverse kicks that are seen there. Until then, most kicks were low and reverse kicks did not really play a part in their techniques, or at least that is my understanding.

Heck, all I want is for people to realize that this man was a true pioneer for American Martial Arts. He deserves a place in the history of this countries greats. He competed in a competition that only exists in very few places now, and usually is limited to only 50 fights. He was tough, diligent, recognized by the big names of the time as the best and a ground breaker. And, he trained some great fighters.

**Bolverk** · Posted On: 10/04/2007 5:30pm

Originally Posted by Soju - Joe

In what way did karate - with a specific example using punches for example, did Karate change after Slomanski?

And don't say "they learned to generate more power" that doesn't mean anything.

What specifically about the mechanics and techniques and training methodology did the change to generate more power?

Specifics we need specifics.

I will get back to you on that, after I read the published history of changes in Karate. It may be a couple of years, since I doubt that finding that specific documentation may be impossible. Until then, use your imagination, since it may be lost like the vast majority of history concerning the martial arts.

Who knows, maybe they started eating more protein so their offspring would get taller and larger. Then they would have the same reach and size as the Americans who towered over them.

Anyway, let me turn this around on you for a change. Why are your questions important, what specific fact of history will change? Why are you so slow to acknowledge that this man was a great fighter. What, it is not on video so you can't believe the recounting of history by others? Or do you just have a plain aversion to admitting that Americans can be great?

**Goju - Joe** · Posted On: 10/04/2007 5:56pm

It has nothing to do with his fighting powers no one has argued with you about that.

It's your claims that he was one of the most important martial artists of his time.

There's nothing you have said that supports that. Don't care that he's American, Chinese, Scientologist or anything it just an illogical factually inaccurate statement to make, unless you can show beyond tournament rules who he effected and changed not only Karate but martial arts.

Like I said Don Draeger - an American, had more of an impact and deserves the title of "one of the greats" more than Solmanski unless you can back up your claims of his influence.

We're talking 1953 hear not Shogunate 1700's Japan it's not that hard to dig up some facts.

**Bolverk** · Posted On: 10/04/2007 6:41pm

Just a quick reading on Donn Draeger shows he was indeed active in Asian Martial Arts, but I see no accolades for comeptition. True, he is credited with pioneering the migration of the arts to the states, but again, Slomanski did it the other way around. He just kicked all their asses. In other words, he walked the walk, and that says a hell of alot about him. I am surprised you are trying to marginalize him, rather then give him the place he deserves next to such people as Donn Draeger.

Hell, Slomanski did what Mas Oyama thought all his students should do to get higher rank. And he did it on his own. He proved himself, and you deny him. I would like to know why. Is it because he was a man of action, rather then an author? Actions speak much louder then words.

**It is Fake** · Posted On: 10/04/2007 7:15pm

Originally Posted by Bolverk

Just a quick reading on Donn Draeger shows he was indeed active in Asian Martial Arts, but I see no accolades for comeptition. True, he is credited with pioneering the migration of the arts to the states, but again, Slomanski did it the other way around. He just kicked all their asses. In other words, he walked the walk, and that says a hell of alot about him. I am surprised you are trying to marginalize him, rather then give him the place he deserves next to such people as Donn Draeger.

Hell, Slomanski did what Mas Oyama thought all his students should do to get higher rank. And he did it on his own. He proved himself, and you deny him. I would like to know why. Is it because he was a man of action, rather then an author? Actions speak much louder then words.

Are you reading the thread or bitching?

There is good information here but, your chip excuse me the boulder you are carrying around on your shoulder is ridiculous.

He kicked all of whose asses?
Who is denying him?
Who said he wasn't a man of Action?

All people are saying is it reads like the many Bruce Lee Fluff pieces. It was a decent article that could be good minus the OMG HE IS THE GREATEST RESPECT HIM NOW crap sprinkled in the article. Soju is hitting what bothers most. So what if he kicked a 100 peoples asses and supposedly introduced weight classes. What else did he do?

Did you write it?
Is he a relative or the same nationality as you?

You are taking this way to personal IMO.

**Goju - Joe** · Posted On: 10/04/2007 7:41pm

Originally Posted by Bolverk

Just a quick reading on Donn Draeger shows he was indeed active in Asian Martial Arts, but I see no accolades for comeptition. True, he is credited with pioneering the migration of the arts to the states, but again, Slomanski did it the other way around. He just kicked all their asses. In other words, he walked the walk, and that says a hell of alot about him. I am surprised you are trying to marginalize him, rather then give him the place he deserves next to such people as Donn Draeger.

Hell, Slomanski did what Mas Oyama thought all his students should do to get higher rank. And he did it on his own. He proved himself, and you deny him. I would like to know why. Is it because he was a man of action, rather then an author? Actions speak much louder then words.

Are you sure you're not related to Kickcatcher?

**kolsyrade** · Posted On: 10/05/2007 7:01am

Originally Posted by Bolverk

So, you're saying that a lesson which shocked Japanese Karateka was lost on Shigeru Oyama? And that he mysteriously decided to travel to America to teach Karate while finding new ways to train for the size differences he happened to encounter here? LOL, good try.

Shigeru was SENT to the US (along with tadashi Nakamura) by Masutatsu Oyama in order to spread the kyokushin style there. Unfortunately, when they left kyokushin in the late 70ies for totally unrelated reasons, they took their dojos with them, and kyokushin in the US fragmented. Something kyokushin in the US still has not recovered from.
Several other high ranking kyokushin guys was sent as "missionaries" to other countries around the same time.

They did not go there to study with anyone, and that large fighters are tougher to defeat than smaller fighters with the same skill, was hardly news to any of them.

Slomanski might have had a impact on karate back then, but not even remotely as profound a impact as you are trying to make it.

**RickRoss** · Posted On: 4/18/2013 11:26pm

Hey all

epic bump here

I was just reading about Elvis being a black belt as I hadn't heard it before

I found this great article and searched up this guy to verify the things it says

and i ended up finding this post sadly

I really think this kind of training is the true martial arts

I think this is a much better article about this man and anyone who would disrespect him or argue about who is better, him or gracie, or who made more impact, is very foolish and not much of a man themself

anyways, much better read here, and maybe it will help you get more respect, to hear this full story. i recommend reading it all and the letter from his wife whose daughter apparently found people talking about her father on the internet.

add the first w

ww.tracyskarate.com/Stories/was_elvis_really_a_black_belt.htm

**Rock Ape** · Posted On: 4/19/2013 1:53am