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  1. Sophist is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/04/2007 3:25pm


     Style: Judo, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Bolverk
    Unfortunately, you would rather pick apart my presentation then recognize the fact that he destroyed the belief in Japanese Karate techniques as they were practiced at the time. You liken his accomplishments to him just being another fighter. Never mind that he accomplished what no Japanese Karate-ka ever accomplished by knocking off 119 consecutive opponents.
    So, uh, you didn't hear about Oyama's three hundred man kumite then?
    http://www.masutatsuoyama.com/100mankumite.htm

    The problem with comparing him to some of the other great martial artists that have been mentioned in this thread is roughly as follows:
    Take a notional list of the top thousand strikers in the world.
    Note how many of them are karateka (hint: they'll be a minority once you've factored out all the muay thai guys and muay-thai-derived kickboxing, and the savateurs, and the boxers, and the san da fighters).
    Okay, we're probably down to a hundred at best. Now, until we can actually show that he was the guy who changed the training habits of Kyokushin, let's take away the karateka in Oyama's lineage.
    Whoops. List looks kind of empty now.

    Now, if we start looking at the top thousand NHB fighters in the world, the vast majority of these are in a Gracie's lineage, and all of them are in Kano's.

    As far as "influential" goes, the impact on grappling and, by extension, NHB made by the BJJ and judo pioneers seriously outweighs almost everyone in the history of striking, which is stylistically far more diverse and hence more dilute in influence.

    Anyway, getting back to Oyama: what further evidence have you that Slomanski influenced Oyama's approach? And what specific changes in training are you attributing to Slomanski's victory?
  2. Goju - Joe is offline
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    I am a Ninja bitches!! Deal with it

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    Posted On:
    10/04/2007 3:34pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Improv comedy

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Bolverk
    Yep, causing an entire country to change its approach because he beat every fighter they threw at him is not a revolution. I would compare it to say, a Japanese baseball team winning the World Series. An event that would give recognition to every player on the Japanese team if it occured. And that Japanese team, if it existed, would be considered great.
    so how did his win effect how japanese train Karate? Did they lift mroe weights? Take steroids? Have adamantium fused to their bones?

    Beside the rule set what was the effect?

    Never mind that he accomplished what no Japanese Karate-ka ever accomplished by knocking off 119 consecutive opponents. He proved that size matters, and that technique alone, as the Japanese thought, was not adequate to the task. That was huge at the time.
    we are still talking about single point Kumite. Hard contact test but not continuous full contact.

    Kyukushin kumite is full contact (no head punching) untill the other guy is knocked out or gives up.

    Slomanski probably would have loved that in his time. But still it's point sparring

    Hard contact point sparring and a notable accomplishment but not ground breaking.

    Also as to the claims he beat the best fighters in Japan, no he beat the best Karate fighters in Japan. Good for him tough dude but his effect on martial arts is not the same as Kano or Gracie
  3. Bolverk is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/04/2007 3:37pm


     Style: Jeet Kune Do

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Okay, I guess only I am a fan of Hank Slomanski. I will not attempt to get you folks to recongnize his accomplishments any longer. We will just let his name fade in history.
    Knowing it is not enough, we must apply.
    Willing is not enough, we must do.

    Never approach a Bull from the front, a Horse from the rear, or a Fool from any direction!

    He who dares not offend cannot be honest. -- Thomas Payne
  4. Goju - Joe is offline
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    I am a Ninja bitches!! Deal with it

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    Posted On:
    10/04/2007 3:39pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Improv comedy

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You just don't read the posts do you?

    Are you related to Kickcatcher by any chance?
  5. Bolverk is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/04/2007 3:41pm


     Style: Jeet Kune Do

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Sophist
    So, uh, you didn't hear about Oyama's three hundred man kumite then?
    http://www.masutatsuoyama.com/100mankumite.htm

    The problem with comparing him to some of the other great martial artists that have been mentioned in this thread is roughly as follows:
    Take a notional list of the top thousand strikers in the world.
    Note how many of them are karateka (hint: they'll be a minority once you've factored out all the muay thai guys and muay-thai-derived kickboxing, and the savateurs, and the boxers, and the san da fighters).
    Okay, we're probably down to a hundred at best. Now, until we can actually show that he was the guy who changed the training habits of Kyokushin, let's take away the karateka in Oyama's lineage.
    Whoops. List looks kind of empty now.

    Now, if we start looking at the top thousand NHB fighters in the world, the vast majority of these are in a Gracie's lineage, and all of them are in Kano's.

    As far as "influential" goes, the impact on grappling and, by extension, NHB made by the BJJ and judo pioneers seriously outweighs almost everyone in the history of striking, which is stylistically far more diverse and hence more dilute in influence.

    Anyway, getting back to Oyama: what further evidence have you that Slomanski influenced Oyama's approach? And what specific changes in training are you attributing to Slomanski's victory?
    Yes, Oyama's 300 man kumite was an awesome feat, to be sure. But, as it says in the article, it was done with only his best students from his dojo. He fought each of them until he went through them all, and then started over again with the first student. It was not a sanctioned international event with fighters from many different karate styles. But still, a great accomplishment indeed.
    Knowing it is not enough, we must apply.
    Willing is not enough, we must do.

    Never approach a Bull from the front, a Horse from the rear, or a Fool from any direction!

    He who dares not offend cannot be honest. -- Thomas Payne
  6. Bolverk is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/04/2007 3:45pm


     Style: Jeet Kune Do

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Soju - Joe
    You just don't read the posts do you?

    Are you related to Kickcatcher by any chance?
    What, making them realize that their techniques were inadequate was not enough? They had to change their approach to the competition. They had to add weight classes. Why, because their belief that techniques would conquer size was totally uprooted? Kind of put a cramp in their belief system and made them find a new approach.
    Knowing it is not enough, we must apply.
    Willing is not enough, we must do.

    Never approach a Bull from the front, a Horse from the rear, or a Fool from any direction!

    He who dares not offend cannot be honest. -- Thomas Payne
  7. Goju - Joe is offline
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    I am a Ninja bitches!! Deal with it

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    Posted On:
    10/04/2007 3:49pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Improv comedy

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Bolverk
    What, making them realize that their techniques were inadequate was not enough? They had to change their approach to the competition.

    Specifically which techniques? Chambered punches, snap kicks what?

    And how did they adapt

    Gracies made people see they need a ground game

    Kano showed that limited technique with full resistance training beat deadly technique with cooperative training.

    You keep making vague statements give us details.
  8. Bolverk is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/04/2007 3:58pm


     Style: Jeet Kune Do

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Soju - Joe
    Specifically which techniques? Chambered punches, snap kicks what?

    And how did they adapt

    Gracies made people see they need a ground game

    Kano showed that limited technique with full resistance training beat deadly technique with cooperative training.

    You keep making vague statements give us details.
    And Slomanski made the Japanese realize that size does matter, and techniques had to be adjusted to compensate for the generation of power. What is so vague?
    Knowing it is not enough, we must apply.
    Willing is not enough, we must do.

    Never approach a Bull from the front, a Horse from the rear, or a Fool from any direction!

    He who dares not offend cannot be honest. -- Thomas Payne
  9. Bolverk is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/04/2007 4:10pm


     Style: Jeet Kune Do

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Mas Oyama opened his first dojo the same year that Hank Slomanski won the International Karate Championship. So, it stands that at that time, Hank Slomanski was in a class by himself. Mas Oyama did his 300 man kumite sometime after he had opened his first studio, to test himself. Though I have not found a date yet, he did institute it as a requirement for higher rank for a short time. The only people to complete it started in 1965, nearly a decade after Slomanski won. It stands to reason that Mas Oyama probably accomplished his feat at sometime in the early 1960's, shortly before making it a requirement of his students and after the change in the competition rule. The requirement was later dropped.
    Knowing it is not enough, we must apply.
    Willing is not enough, we must do.

    Never approach a Bull from the front, a Horse from the rear, or a Fool from any direction!

    He who dares not offend cannot be honest. -- Thomas Payne
  10. Warlock is offline

    Featherweight

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    Posted On:
    10/04/2007 4:49pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: TKD, Krotty, KF

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Bolverk
    And Slomanski made the Japanese realize that size does matter, and techniques had to be adjusted to compensate for the generation of power. What is so vague?
    I don't think how much he contributed to that realization is vague, or even insignificant, so much as the result you are claiming. The whole "Changing the face of Asian Martial Arts" bit seemed a bit over-the-top to me.

    I can see how the realization that size matters was an important revelation to Japanese Karate-ka, but you don't really show how it actually changed the fundamentals of the art of Japanese Karate itself, let alone Asian Martial arts as a whole.

    From what you posted, all it seems that all they did was introduce weight classes and eliminations. That, in my admittedly sad, McDojo tainted experience, is generally an avoidance strategy that merely sidesteps the issue of size, rather than adapt to accomodate it.

    How did the art itself change to accomodate this new challenge? Did thier martial arts philosophy change? And how did this affect how they trained and fought? What techniques did they adopt/change/drop in order for smaller combatants to better deal with larger stronger opponents? (Besides not fighting them altogether?)

    Not trying to give you are hard time, just hoping to clarify...
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