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  1. Bolverk is offline

    Ex-ATA and Proud of it.

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    Posted On:
    10/04/2007 12:11pm


     Style: Jeet Kune Do

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Istislah
    Doesn't this just prove that that Hank Slomanski was good at "old style martial arts" and was a quick learner. I don't really see how his "American-ness" played into it; did he defeat his opponents with bicameral representive democracy, or maybe Coca-Cola... gigantic steel cars with fins?




    It's certainly a reasonable assumption (but not necessarily true) that his "technique" was inferior to at least some of his opponents but I'm really flabbergasted at how fighting continuously for "4-5 hours" against a stream of rested opponents and emerging undefeated is a demonstration of anything but "superior spirit" prevailing.
    Size was how his "American-ness" played into it.
    Knowing it is not enough, we must apply.
    Willing is not enough, we must do.

    Never approach a Bull from the front, a Horse from the rear, or a Fool from any direction!

    He who dares not offend cannot be honest. -- Thomas Payne
  2. Goju - Joe is offline
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    I am a Ninja bitches!! Deal with it

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    Posted On:
    10/04/2007 12:14pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Improv comedy

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Also Mas Oyama's student adapting his style because American's are big and tough doesn't really support anything your claim that Hank was one of the most influential martial artists of his time.

    If Hank had developed new techniques or brought in other techniques from other martial arts. And if Shigeru Oyama came to the US to study with him and learn, you would have a point.

    All you showed was that hank showed that technique being relatively equal under the same rule set, size and strength matters.

    Not exactly a ground breaking moment in human thought.
  3. Bolverk is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/04/2007 12:16pm


     Style: Jeet Kune Do

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Sophist
    You fail at history.

    The Gracies were trained in judo by the Kodokan-educated Maeda. There were no forgotten arts being resurrected - the judo ground game was a relatively new development, and was supplemented by catch wrestling techniques Maeda had picked up on his travels. If you even took the time to read a BJJ book by a Gracie, you'd learn that what you just said was bollocks.
    If I fail at history, why was Helio Gracie teaching his first class of Japanese JuJitsu at the age of 16? An experience which helped him to go on and create Gracie JuJitsu.
    Knowing it is not enough, we must apply.
    Willing is not enough, we must do.

    Never approach a Bull from the front, a Horse from the rear, or a Fool from any direction!

    He who dares not offend cannot be honest. -- Thomas Payne
  4. Bolverk is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/04/2007 12:18pm


     Style: Jeet Kune Do

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Soju - Joe
    Also Mas Oyama's student adapting his style because American's are big and tough doesn't really support anything your claim that Hank was one of the most influential martial artists of his time.

    If Hank had developed new techniques or brought in other techniques from other martial arts. And if Shigeru Oyama came to the US to study with him and learn, you would have a point.

    All you showed was that hank showed that technique being relatively equal under the same rule set, size and strength matters.

    Not exactly a ground breaking moment in human thought.
    So, you're saying that a lesson which shocked Japanese Karateka was lost on Shigeru Oyama? And that he mysteriously decided to travel to America to teach Karate while finding new ways to train for the size differences he happened to encounter here? LOL, good try.
    Knowing it is not enough, we must apply.
    Willing is not enough, we must do.

    Never approach a Bull from the front, a Horse from the rear, or a Fool from any direction!

    He who dares not offend cannot be honest. -- Thomas Payne
  5. Vince Tortelli is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/04/2007 12:21pm

    supporting member
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Jigoro Kano's great innovation was his training method. By limiting the use of certain techniques, he enabled his students to train applying their moves full force against opponets who were actively resisting and attempting to apply techniques of their own. It was this training that allowed judoka to prevail in various tournaments against the other Jiu Jitsu styles. So yes, he changed how people train.
    And the jiu jitsu Maeda taught the Gracies was NOT traditional JJJ!!!!!!!!!!!
  6. Bolverk is offline

    Ex-ATA and Proud of it.

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    Posted On:
    10/04/2007 12:33pm


     Style: Jeet Kune Do

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Jigoro Kano created Judo for sport, period. He did so because he was disgusted that most of his fellow JuJitsu stylists were thugs and using their skills to terrorize people on the streets. He then introduced Judo to the academia of the time, which is when he encoutered the swimmers and got the idea for Black Belts.

    The difference in training, removal of all deadly techniques from JuJitsu and a standardization of the moves so that Judo would be the same in every school. That is what Kano did.
    Knowing it is not enough, we must apply.
    Willing is not enough, we must do.

    Never approach a Bull from the front, a Horse from the rear, or a Fool from any direction!

    He who dares not offend cannot be honest. -- Thomas Payne
  7. Sophist is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/04/2007 12:33pm


     Style: Judo, BJJ

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Bolverk
    Why? Because technique did not compensate for size as the Japanese believed.
    Ah, but it does. We've vast screeds of examples, from the Gracies' fights to Butterbean vs Sudo to the poor giants they threw to top Pride fighters.

    Where technique is similarly advanced and one fighter is larger and stronger than the other, the size difference is a huge advantage. But a good little one can still **** up a mediocre big one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bolverk
    And by the way, Kano began Judo by removing techniques from JuJitsu. He then took the Black Ribbon used to designate advanced swimmers and applied the concept to Judo, creating the Black Belt. He did not change the way people trained.
    Um, you need a brief history lesson.

    There is no one art called "jujitsu". It was and is an umbrella term applied to a large number of different-but-usually-similar arts. Koryu jujitsu, the old jujitsu of Japan, was divided into many different ryuha, or schools. Some of these still survive.

    Kano Ryu Jujitsu, later known as judo, was a fusion of techniques from various jujitsu ryuha trained with full contact sparring; while this was not entirely new to Japanese jujitsu (Kano had trained in a couple of ryuha which did incorporate some form of free practice), most jujitsu ryuha did not make this a significant part of their training, and the extent to which Kano incorporated it into his new art went far beyond the extent of its predecessor arts. This is the training revolution that is being spoken of here.

    Kano's new art then stomped over the old jujitsu ryuha in a number of challenge matches, which contributed to the old schools fading into obscurity and judo gaining pre-eminence. The most famous of these is the 1886 Shiai to determine who taught the Tokyo Police.

    Japanese judoka visiting the outside world often did not make a distinction between judo and jujitsu (as, after all, judo was just a type of jujitsu). Some of them had been taught at dojos which had previously been jujitsu dojos and had adopted judo into their curriculum after its successes brought new-found popularity.

    Mitsuyo Maeda however was taught at the Kodokan itself and was sent to America to demonstrate judo there. He continued as a kind of judo evangelist in travels to Europe; as with most of the early judoka abroad, he fought a large number of European catch wrestlers and took on all comers.

    He ended up in Brazil, where for whatever reason he opted to call what he did jujitsu instead of judo, and the Gracies took it from there.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsuyo_Maeda

    Quote Originally Posted by Bolverk
    If I fail at history, why was Helio Gracie teaching his first class of Japanese JuJitsu at the age of 16? An experience which helped him to go on and create Gracie JuJitsu.
    Gracie's "jujitsu" was, at the beginning, actually judo. It developed into something more over the decades that followed.
  8. Sophist is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/04/2007 12:35pm


     Style: Judo, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Bolverk
    Jigoro Kano created Judo for sport, period. He did so because he was disgusted that most of his fellow JuJitsu stylists were thugs and using their skills to terrorize people on the streets. He then introduced Judo to the academia of the time, which is when he encoutered the swimmers and got the idea for Black Belts.

    The difference in training, removal of all deadly techniques from JuJitsu and a standardization of the moves so that Judo would be the same in every school. That is what Kano did.
    No. While he had intentions of making his new art a manifestation of physical culture similar to the English view of boxing, he created it as a fighting art first and foremost, and proved its value by beating the **** out of the koryu jujitsu schools.

    Please inform yourself on this topic before posting further.
  9. Goju - Joe is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/04/2007 12:36pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Improv comedy

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Bolverk
    So, you're saying that a lesson which shocked Japanese Karateka was lost on Shigeru Oyama? And that he mysteriously decided to travel to America to teach Karate while finding new ways to train for the size differences he happened to encounter here? LOL, good try.

    Can you actually show a link or quote that shows he decided to come to the US because he was amazed by Hank solominski being big and winning?

    You brought up a quote of his that showed he adjusted his striking cause Americans are big and then tried to connect it to Hank Solminski.

    A lot of Japanese martial artists came to North America to make a living and a nich for themselves.

    Did Shigeru Oyama come to the US to study with Hank Slomanski?

    What proof do you have that Shigeru's comments on size and strenght have any connection to Hank Slomanski?


    All you did was cut and paste from here

    http://www.tracyskarate.com/Stories/...black_belt.htm

    Not impressed at all
  10. Lu Tze is offline

    BJJ might make you a better ground fighter, but Judo will make you a better dancer.

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    Posted On:
    10/04/2007 12:50pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Judo

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Bolverk
    And by the way, Kano began Judo by removing techniques from JuJitsu. He then took the Black Ribbon used to designate advanced swimmers and applied the concept to Judo, creating the Black Belt. He did not change the way people trained.
    What a beautiful oversimplification.

    He did change the way people trained. The modification (not removal) of the more dangerous techniques allowed the fighters to practice with full resistance consistently (with 'aliveness' to use an oft abused buzzword). Kano recognised the superiority of this paradigm, it's the reason he modified Judo to be 'safer' in the first place... he didn't just do it on a whim.

    It is also very clear where BJJ gets it's major influences as the training paradigm is exactly the same as judo's, not jujitsu. The actual teqniques have nothing to do with it, although even those weren't that divergent until recently (I don't know where you're getting this 'mystical lost techniques' crap).

    In short, stop talking out of your fucking arse.
    Last edited by Lu Tze; 10/04/2007 12:58pm at . Reason: Clarity (I hope).
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