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  1. M1K3 is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/03/2007 8:37am


     Style: submission grappling

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by wanabeshinobi
    groin biting: hard to practice, offensive.
    I have to agree with this one.:listen:
  2. juszczec is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/03/2007 8:41am


     Style: karate and jujutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by tapoften
    So consensus is: might occasionally be useful, but since: (i) its not a panacea technique you can rely on to save you consistently from an inferior position; and (ii) its not allowed in competition then there's little point in worrying too much about it?
    I agree with the first and disagree with the 2nd.

    Lots of stuff isn't allowed in competition:

    -karate tournaments don't allow uppercuts and hooks
    -boxing matches don't allow kicking
    -bjj tournaments don't allow striking
    -TKD tournaments don't allow grappling
    -Kyokushin tournames don't allow punches to the face

    However, I do all of those and train to deal with all of those. Small joint manip might not completely save my ass, but if it gives me an opening to land something that does (or gives me an opening to create another opening etc etc etc) then great.

    My problem is how to get people to train safely with them. Fingers are fragile.
  3. tapoften is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/03/2007 9:50am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: BJJ+MT Noob, TKD BB

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    All the examples you give are of techniques which are not allowed in a particular form of competition but are allowed in others. There's no sport I know of where you are allowed finger locks and so I think my point is still valid - if you're interested in training in things which are useful for competition then small joint locks are pointless.

    In terms of training for the 'real world' my personal view is that the chance they will ever come in useful is low, because the chances of me ever having to fight someone other than in a sport context are low. Therefore the effort of extensive, specific training in such techniques is a low priority for me. This particularly so when (as the consensus seems to be) these are techniques which are rarely effective anyway.

    That said, I suppose that if one wanted to train in these techniques, an issue arises as to how best to train safely. The point at which fingers break and the point at which pain becomes sufficient to submit somebody are proximate, particularly when the adrenaline is pumping. I guess the best approach is to train these techniques rather as you would heel hooks etc: i.e. train with people who are sensible enought to apply such techniques slowly and to recognise once they are stuck in a hold where, if their partner continued, something would break.
    Last edited by tapoften; 10/03/2007 9:56am at .
  4. gangrelchilde is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/03/2007 10:38am


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I've done some quinna (aka chin na). The stuff isn't bad, but as you noted, it's not a "cure all" defense. Is small joint manipulation handy if you've trained it, yes. Does it sound as though you personally should go out of your way to train them? Nope.

    As for training them, same principle as BJJ (my current art). Get an armbar, it's tap or snap. Same prionciple in chin na. Get a joint lock, apply it with the appropriate level of force for training, and make sure your partner is smart enough to tap out.
  5. Ryno is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/03/2007 10:39am


     Style: FMA, Jujutsu/Judo/SAMBO

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Small joint manipulation is legit, but has a pretty small place in combat. I wouldn't try snatching a pinky out of the air in a fast and furious street boxing match, as a lot of JJJ and RBSD folks would have you believe is possible. But to break a grip in a self defense situation? Sure. They can help with a pry-off of a grip sometimes. Would this end the fight? Nope. And probably not even if you broke the finger. I suppose it is possible, but not likely.

    Finger locks can be useful, but there's a pretty small window of opportunity to use them. And even if used successfully, they might not end the fight. You're better off knowing how to put a guy to sleep, than how to twist his pinky.
  6. Virus is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/03/2007 10:45am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryno
    Small joint manipulation is legit, but has a pretty small place in combat. I wouldn't try snatching a pinky out of the air in a fast and furious street boxing match, as a lot of JJJ and RBSD folks would have you believe is possible. But to break a grip in a self defense situation? Sure. They can help with a pry-off of a grip sometimes. Would this end the fight? Nope. And probably not even if you broke the finger. I suppose it is possible, but not likely.

    Finger locks can be useful, but there's a pretty small window of opportunity to use them. And even if used successfully, they might not end the fight. You're better off knowing how to put a guy to sleep, than how to twist his pinky.
    That's right. Get someone to show you some finger twists that hurt, or read up on them, say "that's interesting" then resume your training in BJJ/judo/sambo ect.
  7. Fitz is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/03/2007 10:51am


     Style: Judo, Tomiki Aikido, ??

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    A lot of the early "Surprise, I subbed you!" events that happened to Judo guys I knew and trained with on their first encounteres with serious BJJ folks in the mid 90s often came about because of joint locks to wrists, fingerss and ankles as set up or "icing" on other techniques. Since Judo folks rarely worry about say leaving their thumb in a location where it can be crushed in on itself they were easy targets for that kind of thing and had that fact taken advantage of. Similarly they weren't used to worrying about letting the other guy have access to their hands and wrists as they were only training to avoid arm bars.

    I suppose that is part of why I find some contemporary BJJ folks who go on about how joint locks are useless funny.

    I've also had a few "You had me on the ground back mounted, but I could have grabbed your fingers and broken them if I wanted" excuses from some folks trying to save face on other contexts. I'm baffled by the logic and keep it up there with people who do the "sure, you just got me on the ground from a single leg and beat the crap out of me, but I secretly scratched your eyes, only I didn't 'cause we're just training" thing for the same reason.
  8. wanabeshinobi is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/03/2007 12:39pm


     Style: Defense Fighting

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Backdraft
    Could you explain that a bit better? I really don't get what you mean here.
    I can try. Imagine someone on his back and you want to pass his open guard (without gi that is). Normally I would grab the guy's leg from the lower shin if i wanted to eg. flip his legs aside. This kind of grip can be pretty easily avoided by making circles and kicking with feet. If I grab the toe area (toes & metatarsus), I have pretty good control since his ankle buckles, so there's not as much strength behind. Also he would be likely to hurt his own ankle(or even knee) if he keeps kicking and making circles. On bad side, it's also harder for me to throw those legs aside.

    I think the instructor mentioned in the OP was talking about finger breaks to get out of a guillotine, not get into one.
    I understood that and by securing the choke I meant to make sure it doesn't go any deeper.
  9. ViciousFlamingo is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/03/2007 12:50pm


     Style: BJJ & Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Fitz
    A lot of the early "Surprise, I subbed you!" events that happened to Judo guys I knew and trained with on their first encounteres with serious BJJ folks in the mid 90s often came about because of joint locks to wrists, fingerss and ankles as set up or "icing" on other techniques. Since Judo folks rarely worry about say leaving their thumb in a location where it can be crushed in on itself they were easy targets for that kind of thing and had that fact taken advantage of. Similarly they weren't used to worrying about letting the other guy have access to their hands and wrists as they were only training to avoid arm bars.
    I don't know the guys you trained with, but you might consider that the guys you were rolling with probably tapped to get you to let go of wrists, fingers, and ankles, not because you had the sub, but because the chances of you fucking up their bodies by accident was pretty high. I tap when anybody gets a grip on my fingers, even if they're not anywhere close to getting a sub because I don't want some ar-tard breaking my finger. Most reasonable grapplers will do that too. Most clubs and schools that I know of specifically prohibit noobs from doing small joint manipulation, because they know somebody will eventually spaz and injure their partner.

    Anybody who grabs for my fingers screams "mat spaz" to me, and I will usually just tap, then excuse myself and find a new partner.
    Last edited by ViciousFlamingo; 10/03/2007 12:55pm at .
  10. theword is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/03/2007 1:25pm


     Style: boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I once broke my index finger playing tether ball (yeah that's right, at camp) and it hurt like hell. I can hardly imagine what it would feel like if someone broke my finger, then started manipulating it by mashing it into the knuckle or pulling it out and away from the other fingers. Still, seems like it would be a pretty hard technique to pull off in the middle of a fight that would involve not only grappling but striking as well. I could have shortened this whole thing by just saying I agree with what everyone else has posted.
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