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  1. Sam Browning is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/29/2007 3:19pm

    hall of famestaff
     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I agree, every legitimate school we know of will let people watch the basic class. I also understand why you would not want to spend that type of money, just find out what you can for free.
  2. jdinca is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/29/2007 3:27pm


     Style: Chinese Kenpo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Based on their website, my take on the school is that they feel they're a legitimate TMA school that teaches a traditional Okinawan style. Whether you believe in TMA, or not, I don't see the school as Bullshido just yet.
  3. melk is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/29/2007 3:48pm


     Style: *********

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The clues to bullshido with them are for me twofold

    1) Too "practical" to ever be used in sport.
    2) $150US(note average middle income family in Jerusalem makes $2400 a month) for five "free" lessons. If you want I will see if I can find a flat bed scanner and scan their poster, it is in english, because no working native Israeli would be able to afford that. You have to be what the natives call a "rich" american.

    I have no real gripe with TMA in its place. I think they are excellent ways to hand down culture and physical fitness, and in some cases, even real combat ability. There are some claims on the RyuKyu website that make me nervous. For instance see what they say about your own art... the talk about Kenpo there(as in other styles than theirs). If you agree then great... though I doubt that you will.
  4. jdinca is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/29/2007 6:34pm


     Style: Chinese Kenpo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I dug a little deeper into their website. For the most part, nothing really jumps out but there are a couple of questions. Were it Bullshido, I wouldn't expect them to have a page on what to look for in a school and a checklist to go along with it. Their lineages seem okay to me and the descriptions of what they teach also seem okay. The philosophy is fine also, with a couple of disagreements on my part but it's not my school. The school is definitely set up along the lines of a kenpo school, down to the first five lessons and belt ranking. They consider themselves to be a full spectrum martial arts school dealing with mind, body and spirit. In addition, the fact that the highest ranked BB next to their GM is 4th degree is a good sign. It indicates that BB isn't easy to achieve. Were there a bunch of 6th, 7th, etc., BB's running around, I would be highly suspect. That is offset somewhat by their affiliation with Kempo International. It also appears they've been in business for over 30 years. The comment about "too deadly" for sport is nothing more than I would expect from most RBSD schools trying to attract students. "Not designed for sport" would be better but it's a minor quibble. They also don't appear to take children as students.

    The couple of things that raised my eyebrows is one, the price of the introductory lessons. That's pretty steep. As a comparison, my school is in a very affluent community and we charge $50 for the same five lessons. Makes me wonder what the regular fees are. The other thing was their affiliation with Kempo International. I took a look at their requirements for BB certification and was pretty disappointed. Based on their requirements, I should be coming up on 4th degree black instead of 2nd degree brown.

    On the face of it, other than the fact they seem to be pretty expensive, I don't have a problem with it yet. I would be interested to see if they would let you watch a couple of classes without doling out the cash.
  5. dveed is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/10/2007 10:44am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Ryukyu Kenpo Kobujutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by jdinca
    In addition, the fact that the highest ranked BB next to their GM is 4th degree is a good sign. It indicates that BB isn't easy to achieve. Were there a bunch of 6th, 7th, etc., BB's running around, I would be highly suspect. That is offset somewhat by their affiliation with Kempo International. It also appears they've been in business for over 30 years. The comment about "too deadly" for sport is nothing more than I would expect from most RBSD schools trying to attract students. "Not designed for sport" would be better but it's a minor quibble. They also don't appear to take children as students.

    The couple of things that raised my eyebrows is one, the price of the introductory lessons. That's pretty steep. As a comparison, my school is in a very affluent community and we charge $50 for the same five lessons. Makes me wonder what the regular fees are. The other thing was their affiliation with Kempo International. I took a look at their requirements for BB certification and was pretty disappointed. Based on their requirements, I should be coming up on 4th degree black instead of 2nd degree brown.
    Let's get some things straight. My highest ranking student is Rocky Leavitt (7th Dan) in Lea's Summit, Mo. (www.kenbukan.org/) Next is Gerald Wicklund (6th Dan) in Liberty, Mo. Then come the 4th Dans. We DO compete! Look at the website for information about the rules. We fight FULL CONTACT with Bogu gear. Not too many (especially in Israel) care to do so. You'll notice: our tournaments are OPEN COMPETITIONS!!!! That's right! Open to any Tom, Dick, or Harry with the BALLS to compete and the brains to follow the few rules we have. We are FRIENDS with Kempo International and I am their Israeli Rep and an Advisor. I don't set the rules or promote by their standards. If, you can get a Black Belt from me in under 5 years - that is something. Jesus, take a look at our requirments for rank! This is one of the hardest systems to get rank in; because I'm a bitch to please! Knowing it ain't good enough. You've got to be able to DO it!!! Our first five program costs 290 Israeli Shekels (currently about 75 US Dollars) not too expensive considering they are private classes with the instructor - not group classes. For comparison, my daughters keyboard organ lessons cost us 20 US Dollars an hour; and, there were 10 girls in the class. A one hour class in English (preparation for matriculation exams) costs 20 Dollars. For 112 Dollars a month you get a one half hour private lesson every week and can come to two classes a day six days a week! That's dirt cheap compared to prices in England, Sweden, or even Tel Aviv! And, finally, we do allow people to watch classes. Sometimes we even encourage them to participate in a free class.
    Last edited by dveed; 12/10/2007 11:13am at .
  6. dveed is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/10/2007 10:57am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Ryukyu Kenpo Kobujutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by melk
    As far as the RyuKyu guys, the charge $150US for five "free" lessons(the money supposedly covers the magic fancy pants, t-shirt, belt, and gym bag), pretty expensive. Frankly I'm not shelling out $150 for in intro to anything. My theory if they want your money and you to sign a contract before they will even let you sit in... something is very wrong.
    This is BS! We have NO contracts. It costs 290 Israeli Shekels (about 75 USD) for the First Five Program (it has NEVER been Free). You've got a month before you need a uniform, and we have never had any gym bags.
  7. dveed is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/10/2007 11:09am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Ryukyu Kenpo Kobujutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by melk
    The clues to bullshido with them are for me twofold

    1) Too "practical" to ever be used in sport.
    2) $150US(note average middle income family in Jerusalem makes $2400 a month) for five "free" lessons. If you want I will see if I can find a flat bed scanner and scan their poster, it is in english, because no working native Israeli would be able to afford that. You have to be what the natives call a "rich" american.
    Again, BS. The claim that joint breaks, eye rips and gouging, biting, breaking spines over the knee, throat strikes, hair grabs, neck breaks, etc. are used in sport is news to me. I've already shown the prices are incorrect. This quote is what really qualifies as bullshido.
  8. dveed is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/10/2007 11:36am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Ryukyu Kenpo Kobujutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Kung-Fu Joe
    Oh, man-- there's some superb Bullshido flags on this site. I love that self-appointed 10th-Dan ranking that Grandmaster Natan is sporting. And I'm always wary when I see a claim like:
    Can't help but notice that there's no mention of what tournament or organization backed these rankings. Also can't help but notice that the Ryukyu Kenpo.org site is conspicuously missing the "Written by D'veed Natan" bit that's found at the end of this textually identical biography.--Joe

    Tournaments were held over a three year period 1979-80-81. They were advertised in every MA magazine at the time - several months in advance. Everyone in the country was invited to compete. If you didn't - don't whine! The Ryukyu Kempo Karate Kobudo Rengo Kai under Taika Seiyu Oyata sponsored, ran, and supervised the competitions. I notice a lot of pussies complain about things they can't do, never could, and never will. Kushi bushi they are! To quote one of my instructors, Jim Harrison: "Don't let your mouth overload your jockstrap" Yeah, the bio was a "cut and paste" Whine about that too. I am lazy!
    If you EVER did any RESEARCH, you would know: almost every Japanese, Okinawan, or Korean instructor was promoted the same way I was. I at least had the good grace to follow the rules set up to run our organization. Not like a few I know.
  9. jdinca is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/10/2007 11:48am


     Style: Chinese Kenpo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by dveed
    Let's get some things straight. My highest ranking student is Rocky Leavitt (7th Dan) in Lea's Summit, Mo. (www.kenbukan.org/) Next is Gerald Wicklund (6th Dan) in Liberty, Mo. Then come the 4th Dans. We DO compete! Look at the website for information about the rules. We fight FULL CONTACT with Bogu gear. Not too many (especially in Israel) care to do so. You'll notice: our tournaments are OPEN COMPETITIONS!!!! That's right! Open to any Tom, Dick, or Harry with the BALLS to compete and the brains to follow the few rules we have. We are FRIENDS with Kempo International and I am their Israeli Rep and an Advisor. I don't set the rules or promote by their standards. If, you can get a Black Belt from me in under 5 years - that is something. Jesus, take a look at our requirments for rank! This is one of the hardest systems to get rank in; because I'm a bitch to please! Knowing it ain't good enough. You've got to be able to DO it!!! Our first five program costs 290 Israeli Shekels (currently about 75 US Dollars) not too expensive considering they are private classes with the instructor - not group classes. For comparison, my daughters keyboard organ lessons cost us 20 US Dollars an hour; and, there were 10 girls in the class. A one hour class in English (preparation for matriculation exams) costs 20 Dollars. For 112 Dollars a month you get a one half hour private lesson every week and can come to two classes a day six days a week! That's dirt cheap compared to prices in England, Sweden, or even Tel Aviv! And, finally, we do allow people to watch classes. Sometimes we even encourage them to participate in a free class.
    My comments were based on what I found on your website, not from what I've seen in person. Reread my post. With the exceptions of those two minor items, I think you are a legit teacher running a legit school but I'm not about to say that outright from information I find on a website. I think that you coming here to defend your reputation with background facts and information lends to the opinion that you are legitimate.

    And yes, I would question any school where you can get a BB in under five years, unless you live at the school almost full time. There are only about 70 Richard Lee BBs (in the last 40 years) and I know of only two that took less than 6 years to reach BB. That, to me, also lends to your credibility.
  10. Kung-Fu Joe is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/10/2007 12:16pm


     Style: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    First of all, let me say that it's nice to see you've found this site, and to hear your input in clearing up a number of these matters. I certainly can't blame you for being extremely defensive in your posts thus far-- this thread has certainly been less than complimentary to you and your school. Hopefully, your answers to some of our comments and criticisms will help to bring us to a better understanding of things.

    Quote Originally Posted by dveed
    Tournaments were held over a three year period 1979-80-81. They were advertised in every MA magazine at the time - several months in advance. Everyone in the country was invited to compete. If you didn't - don't whine! The Ryukyu Kempo Karate Kobudo Rengo Kai under Taika Seiyu Oyata sponsored, ran, and supervised the competitions.
    That's really all I was looking for, in my comment. "World Championships" don't mean a whole lot without the backing of an organization. Knowing who ran the tournaments in which you competed does a great deal towards legitimizing the claim.

    If you EVER did any RESEARCH, you would know: almost every Japanese, Okinawan, or Korean instructor was promoted the same way I was. I at least had the good grace to follow the rules set up to run our organization. Not like a few I know.
    I admit, my "self-promotion" comment was probably unfounded. However, I've run across a great number of people claiming extremely high ranks in martial arts without actually having displayed the skill and experience to back it up. As a result, I'm very wary whenever I see someone claiming a 10th-Dan rank.

    Thanks again for taking the time to post here, Mr. Natan! Your honesty is appreciated. That's the easiest way for any misconceptions that may have arisen to be dispelled.

    --Joe
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