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  1. CannibalCrowley is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/26/2007 7:23am


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Fake Acupuncture Works

    Via the Consumerist, an AP story tells use that fake acupuncture works just as well as the real stuff:

    In the real acupuncture group, 47 percent of patients improved. In the sham acupuncture group, 44 percent did. In the usual care group, 27 percent got relief.
    An interesting part of the study which I believe raised their rates quite a bit:

    The study, appearing in Monday's Archives of Internal Medicine, used a broad definition for low back pain, but ruled out people with back pain caused by spinal fractures, tumors, scoliosis and pregnancy.
    If insurance companies are going to at least partially cover acupuncture then maybe after this study they'll cover tattoos as pain relief too.
  2. hpr is offline
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    Knock-off Cthulhu

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    Posted On:
    9/26/2007 7:27am


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    the real acupuncture group obviously didn't receive teh r43l acupuncture, which can cure everything from cancer to world hunger.
    Curiosity killed the cat. But damn it had a blast.
  3. Quikfeet509 is offline

    Acupuncturist / Anesthesia Student

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    Posted On:
    9/28/2007 12:54am


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Actually assclowns, what this study shows is that when medical acupunturists with their 100 hours of training do acupuncture, their results are statistically as good as putting needles in at random.

    No suprise there. Neither is it a suprise that morons on this site [or this linked site] lack the knowledge on the subject to actually analyze the study [apply generic "appeal to false authority" fallacy].

    If you want to wax intellectual on the subject, how about you give your professional opinion on the treatment protocol, the inclusion / exclusion criteria, the sham treatment, and the outcomes measure. After you do that, I tell you why you are wrong and why you are a fucking idiot.

    Oh, and if you don't understand why that exclusion criteria was used, you should probably shut the **** up and quit pretending to have an ounce of understanding of the topic.
  4. migo is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/28/2007 1:16am


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    For the sham acupuncture, needles were inserted, but not as deeply as for the real thing. The sham acupuncture also did not insert needles in traditional acupuncture points on the body and the needles were not manually moved and rotated.
    So... they had actual acupuncturists doing it, just intentionally putting the needles in the wrong place, and not inserting them as deeply. So if you try it yourself you could **** things up by putting it in too deeply. (Presumably).

    I'm also not surprised that it works for relief of back pain. I have a doctor who does accupuncture for back pain, and he inserts the needles into the spasms and massages them until the spasms release. This is similar to my physiotherapist who massages the spasms (sometimes with his knuckles or elbowl) until they release. If you put enough pressure on a muscle spasm it will release, and seemingly the same thing will happen with needles.

    Also, sometimes pain is being referred from somewhere else, so if the real accupuncturists weren't following the same method that physiotherapists were using, and were using locations that had to do with chi flow, then they likely wouldn't have better results than randomly sticking needles. If you are sticking the needles in randomly, and there is a muscle spasm where you stick the needle, there's a chance you'll get some relief from the stimulation.

    I'm not a doctor, but I have had a lot of back pain, so I've been able to figure a few things out from that.
  5. feedback is offline
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    UAAAH!

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    Posted On:
    9/28/2007 3:04am

    Join us... or die
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I've did a case study examining the usefulness of acupuncture for treating hypertension which concluded that real acupuncture and sham acupuncture were equally useless, but they inserted the needles at "non-important" meridians in that study, it was a bad call to insert them in the correct points in this study but not deeply.
    Tough is not how you act, tough is how you train.
  6. migo is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/28/2007 3:17am


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    So, according to accupuncture theory, if you're going to insert the needles in a specific point it has to be the right depth, too little or too much causes problems?
  7. Oscar Goldman is offline
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    Judo: the anti-trapple

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    Posted On:
    9/28/2007 3:24am

    supporting member
     Style: Jujutsu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by migo
    So, according to accupuncture theory, if you're going to insert the needles in a specific point it has to be the right depth, too little or too much causes problems?
    Wouldn't say it causes problems, just negates effectiveness. There is actually quite a bit of subtlety involved, they can actually feel what my wife describes as a "grab" (she's an acupuncturist) when it's right.

    Quickfeet509 can answer more precisely, he and my wife graduated from the same University. I'm just a guy with a messed up back who gets lots of free treatments. I would ask her, but I'm hiding from my family under the premise that I'm writing a proposal for work (I kind of am).
    Quote Originally Posted by Dinosaur AMP
    You just can't go wrong when your getting armbar'd to Flogging Molly while a fire fighter is cursing at you in the background. Good stuff!
  8. CannibalCrowley is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/28/2007 7:26am


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by feedback
    it was a bad call to insert them in the correct points in this study but not deeply.
    Quote Originally Posted by AP Story
    The sham acupuncture also did not insert needles in traditional acupuncture points on the body and the needles were not manually moved and rotated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quikfeet509
    Actually assclowns, what this study shows is that when medical acupunturists with their 100 hours of training do acupuncture, their results are statistically as good as putting needles in at random.
    Which points to the effects of acupuncture being little more than a placebo effect. A good treatment for hypochondriacs; but not really useful for people who have a serious illness. Hence, why people whose back pain was cause by physical problems were excluded from this study.
  9. migo is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/28/2007 11:51am


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    It doesn't indicate that sore back pain caused by spasms (a physical problem) was excluded from the study.
  10. Quikfeet509 is offline

    Acupuncturist / Anesthesia Student

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    Posted On:
    9/28/2007 6:07pm


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by CannibalCrowley
    Which points to the effects of acupuncture being little more than a placebo effect. A good treatment for hypochondriacs; but not really useful for people who have a serious illness. Hence, why people whose back pain was cause by physical problems were excluded from this study.

    Listen here you stupid ignorant little ****, the exclusion criteria actually makes since if YOU HAD A FUCKING CLUE ABOUT WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT. So back pain only has physical causes if it is due to fractures, tumors, scoliosis, or pregnancy? Are you fucking serious?

    Let me break this down monosyllabically so you can understand it. Pain caused by tumors is sometimes intractable, even to high does of narcotics and adjuvants. Pregnancy-induced back pain has a significantly different treatment than that due to overuse or injury. Pain from fractures and scoliosis are not caused by injury to the muscle, although acupuncture can help in some cases.


    So the exclusion criteria reflects these important points, but most significantly, these conditions make up a small percentage of acupuncture-seeking back pain patients so THEIR OUTCOMES AREN'T AS SIGNIFICANT AS THOSE SEEKING ACUPUNCTURE FOR MORE COMMON CAUSES.



    Listen, just because you can somewhat understand the popular press report of a medical study doesn't mean you have the ability to fucking comprehend it what was actually discussed. It is goddamn ridiculous that people in this fucking country think that since they graduated high school, possibly took a basic biology class in college, and watch Grey's Anatomy with the other little girls in their neighborhood that they somehow have the facilities to understand the intricacies of medicine.



    Quit wasting my mother-fucking time.

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