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  1. #21
    Kung-Fu Joe's Avatar
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt W.
    Joe, let me tell you where I'm coming from with this. I spent most of High School and college training TKD. I even got my black belt in it. It was not "sport" TKD either (although in hindsight, that would have been better). It was practiced very traditionally and was supposed to be for self defense and fighting, not sport.

    Looking back on it all, it almost makes me sick to think I could have spent my time in High School wrestling and then swtiched to something like Judo or BJJ in college. Or, even if I wasn't into wrestling I could have boxed, or done a realistic striking art like Muay Thai or Kyokushin Karate. Srsly, I could just about cry. And I would like to save as many other people from that as possible.
    From what I know of the styles (which, admittedly, is novice level at the very best) Shotokan striking tends to be a lot more like Kyokushin than TKD. In fact, the main differences that I've heard explored between Kyokushin and Shotokan striking techniques tend to arise from Kyokushin's use of the gedan mawashi-geri to attack the thigh with the shinbone, which isn't a part of the traditional Shotokan curriculum. However, Sensei Jones definitely taught its use to me, while taking me through the kihon.

    As far as I know, most of the rest of the difference between the two schools arises more from the stances and the mechanics of blocking, which seem to be more Goju-ryu inspired in Kyokushin. Again, though, I very well might be vastly mistaken, here-- the vast majority of what I do know has come from books, articles, and videos, which are certainly not the best teachers.

    Maybe this is true. But I have a hard time believing there are no boxing gyms in your area. And I have a hard time believing you would get less of a workout at a boxing gym. I also would bet there's a good Judo club in your area somewhere. And even if they don't do as many calisthenics, I can tell you full power grappling provides a hella good workout in of itself.
    There are a few Boxing gyms and Judo dojo in my area, but not all that many. Most of the boxing gyms in Jersey are up north-- there are quite a few in Newark. And the judo dojo in my area tend to have a profit-seeking feel to them. They don't give listings of who their instructors are, where they trained, or even what rank they hold. There's a few judo clubs, as well, run out of YMCA's and health clubs, but I never trust those worth a damn.

    Let me be blunt. If they are teaching you to throw a reverse punch from a long deep stance with your fist chambered at your side, they are teaching you to punch wrong. Wrong for any type of realistic fighting, anyway. Not just different, but wrong. Incorrectly.
    Oh, absolutely. I'd never dream of leaving myself that open and immobile in a real fight. From my fencing background, I'm used to being light on my toes and moving around quite a bit-- even on a meter-wide strip, I tend to be in constant lateral movement. So I asked Sensei Jones why we practiced such deep, wide stances when they rather obviously impair mobility and maneuverability. He didn't give me any BS answers about that stance actually being better, or the improved stability being superior, yada yada yada. He said, "Well, sure, you're not gonna stand that low or that extended in a real fight. But you do it in these drills because it builds leg strength and promotes flexibility."

    May I suggest you read this: http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=60383

    Please. Read it.
    I enjoyed it quite a bit. I'm pleased to say that Sensei Jones seems a bit more grounded in reality than Boyd's Isshin-ryu instructor. He's not one of those people who says, "Trust in Shotokan over everything else, and never ever crosstrain!" He encourages us to incorporate Jiu Jutsu. In fact, on Monday night, we didn't throw a single punch. After warm-ups, the whole night was spent focused on wrist-locks-- hyperflexing, pronating, and supinating. None of the several books on Shotokan that I've read covered even this basic a level of jiu-jutsu, so I was pleased to see it, here.

    Thanks again, Matt! Don't worry-- I'll keep everyone informed as to what's goin' on with the dojo, and I'll keep asking for help in reviewing actual practical application (if any) of the techniques. Worse comes to worst, I steal the warm-up program and find a different dojo or gym to attend, a couple months down the line. But I don't think it's gonna need to come to that.

    --Joe

  2. #22

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt W.
    First of all, just for the record, I prefer the term fighting to self defense because self defense can encompass a lot more than fighting, and many things that martial arts don't deal with. But MA should be able to at least teach one the fighting part of self defense, so let's talk about fighting.

    Now, it seems you are saying that you recognize there are flaws in Shotokan's approach to fighting, but are willing to accept them because it still teaches good basic technique and you like the instructor and workout. Let's assume all that is true. Is there any reason why you wouldn't want to find something that also teaches good basics, has a good workout and has an instructor you like, but that doesn't have the flaws Shotokan does? I mean, why settle and then "move on to something better later"? Why not just do something better to begin with?

    Also, I was wondering if you might describe what Shotokan has taught you about, say, throwing a punch. Including how you practice throwing punches in class. I have a BB in TKD, which is descended from Shotokan, and might be able to give you some insight into what you are training.

    BTW, check out my forum profile (not the Zoints, but the "forum profile") to see my martial arts history if you'd like to know who is talking to you.
    Oh for fucks sake just shut up already and let him do what he wants to do.

  3. #23
    Kung-Fu Joe's Avatar
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Axelton
    Oh for fucks sake just shut up already and let him do what he wants to do.
    That's not really necessary. I'm a Sicilian-descended New Jerseyan. Nothing on this planet could change my mind if I don't want it to. He's really just trying to be helpful, which is the exact purpose of these boards.

    Thanks for the concern, though.

    --Joe

  4. #24

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Just out of curiosity Joe what is the sparring like at your school? point? continuous? light? hard?

  5. #25
    Community Corrections Officer supporting member
    Matt W.'s Avatar
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Oh for fucks sake just shut up already and let him do what he wants to do.
    Do you ever contribute anything to these forums?

  6. #26
    Kung-Fu Joe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tribalweapon
    Just out of curiosity Joe what is the sparring like at your school? point? continuous? light? hard?
    There's both traditional one- and five-point kumite, as well as hard, full-contact sparring (gloves, instep, and headgear). Anyone can participate in the full sparring, though Sensei tends to discourage the lower ranks from it to avoid injuries.

    --Joe

  7. #27
    Tonuzaba's Avatar
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Axelton
    Oh for fucks sake just shut up already and let him do what he wants to do.
    Well, it's not like we could REALLY force Joe to do something THROUGH THE INTERNET, or could we?
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt W.
    Do you ever contribute anything to these forums?
    I think a happy Van Damme avatar is a contribution equalling dozens of well formulated, meaningful and helpful posts. Or isn't it?

    CLICK & WATCH
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    I got BULLSHIDO ON TV!!!

    "Bruce Lee sucks because I slammed my nuts with nunchucks trying to do that stupid **** back in the day. I still managed to have two kids. I forgive you Bruce.
    " - by Vorpal

  8. #28
    patfromlogan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojanlord View Post
    Joe my friend fromwhat I've gathered your Sensei is legit but his teacher Adolfo Ennever is a FRAUD. Check his credentials and do as I did and call those who are alive (or real) who he claims taught him on the american federation of martial arts web page. I have questioned students of George Cofield as well as practitioners who were taught by Professor Ronald Duncan and all stated he is a fraud also. I heard he tells fake war stories also how lame can you get, delusions of grandure. He is just a promoter and somewhat a manipulator I've heard. Be careful whose tree you branch off of my friend.
    Dear Trojanlord, please don't post on 5 year old threads, it's annoying. Your only other post was in the wrong forum and pissed people off and will surely be deleted. Two for two fail... Read the stickies and/or shut the **** up.

    And in case you missed it, here's another chance to read the reply to your other stupid post:

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnKenner View Post
    Dude, this post will get you in all sorts of hot water.

    First off, Its in a completely unrelated thread. Secondly, you need to provide proof of everything you say (and not in the form of hearsay - "I heard from so and so that he didn't teach him").

    So, if you're going to do this right:

    (1) Read all of the stickies in this forum. Learn what this forum is for, and the standards it requires.
    (2) Gather a list of the claims this guy makes (preferably from a place where we know *he* made the claims.
    (3) Gather evidence in the form of affidavits, clips from reputable news agencies, interviews, reports from the better business bureau, interviews, etc...
    (4) And most importantly, document how you crossed paths with this gentleman? Do you have any reason for bias? Any business dealings, competition? Were you a student in the past? What made you think he was a fraud?

    After you have done this, start a new thread on this forum, titled appropriately (like the gentleman's name and school), and post all of the gathered information.

    This will earn you a modicum of respect and appreciation for following the forum rules. You will have to do a lot of legwork if you want to post seriously in this forum. That's the cost if you want to lodge an allegation of fraud against someone.

    In the mean time, Admins, can his post and mine be culled and sent off to Trollshido?
    Last edited by patfromlogan; 8/20/2012 11:06am at .
    "Preparing mentally, the most important thing is, if you aren't doing it for the love of it, then don't do it." - Benny Urquidez

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