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  1. Lu Tze is offline

    BJJ might make you a better ground fighter, but Judo will make you a better dancer.

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    5,018

    Posted On:
    9/23/2007 3:01pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    See my style field.

    Yeah, that's right, it is teh real and we do learn to pak sau bullets (at brown sash).
  2. kiaiki is offline

    Registered Member

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    Posted On:
    9/23/2007 3:34pm


     Style: Aikido Ceteris Paribus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Guys - lots and lots about 'dirty' fighting in a dojo/gym about breaking rules. But what about learning dirty fighting for the street?

    Unless you train (even simulate) fighting without rules, there's not much hope for you in a 'real' street fight.

    Dirty fighters in the dojo:
    If nobody spots you, do what you like - whatever it takes to win.
    If there is an advantage to be had, take it, even by throwing the guy onto concrete or the nearest radiator. (Yup, happened to me when a guy took on a line as part of his BB grading - I was a green belt in radiator hugging.)

    'Dirty' fighters on the street:
    Do whatever it takes not to get injured or killed if you have to fight.
    However, there's no such thing as 'dirty' when it's for real.
    Forget the law - you can't argue about it if you are dead.

    Discuss......... or better yet, test what you know in your dojo or gym against 'dirty' or 'illegal' attacks which are random and unexpected. If you're up for it, and trust each other, go for the 'dirty' moves. No need to wreck each other but just see how far you can go. I suggest tapping out - quickly.

    Let's take an example:
    Aikido gets a rough ride and usually deserves it, but if you study Aikido why not have a session where you throw out the traditional attacks and defences and see how you fare? As far as I know, only tradition dictates how attacks are made - there are no rules as such, so why not take a wooden tanto, ink it up, and see how you get on? Better yet, invite over some karateka and see how you cope, etc etc. I have no faith in untested techniques, so I guess I'm all for 'aliveness' whenever it can be used.

    There's a place for Tomiki 'randori' but I still prefer 'jiyuwaza' with no 'illegal' attacks or defences, thereby negating any definition of 'dirty' - anything goes (in theory) but we often fail to deliver the unexpected and therefore deny ourselves the chance to test ourselves against the 'dirty'.
  3. Teh El Macho is offline
    Teh El Macho's Avatar

    Senior Member

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    Porcupine/Hollywood, FL & Parmistan via Elbonia
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    11,762

    Posted On:
    9/23/2007 3:51pm

    supporting member
     Style: creonte on hiatus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by kiaiki
    Guys - lots and lots about 'dirty' fighting in a dojo/gym about breaking rules. But what about learning dirty fighting for the street?
    Define 'dirty fighting'.
    Why?
    And most important of all, how would you suggest to train this effectively without becoming a parody of simulations without any resistance or reality, and without fucking up your training partners?

    Quote Originally Posted by kiaiki
    Unless you train (even simulate) fighting without rules, there's not much hope for you in a 'real' street fight.
    This would be only true if it not were for the false premises that every 'real' street fight

    1. involves people who have the same level of training as you and/or is significantly big enough, fast and aggressive to use those as equalizers, and
    2. involves people who have the mindset to take a punch, and
    3. involves people who have the mindset and determination to use 'dirty' tactics,
    4. you (the person who is supposedly not ready for a 'real' fight due to always training with 'rules') have never, in your entire life has had a scrap in the street as opposed to those who you fight against in a 'real' fight, and
    5. you (the person who is supposedly not ready for a 'real' fight due to always training with 'rules') are a mindless robot who has never conceptualized or even entertained the differences between fighting with rules in a sport venue and fighting in a real self-defense situation.

    I'm not sure, but me thinks that's one big of a bullshit leap of faith.
    Last edited by Teh El Macho; 9/23/2007 3:54pm at .
    Read this for flexibility and injury prevention, this, this and this for supplementation, this on grip conditioning, and this on staph. New: On strenght standards, relationships and structural balance. Shoulder problems? Read this.

    My crapuous vlog and my blog of training, stuff and crap. NEW: Me, Mrs. Macho and our newborn baby.

    New To Weight Training? Get the StrongLifts 5x5 program and Rippetoe's "Starting Strength, 2nd Ed". Wanna build muscle/gain weight? Check this article. My review on Tactical Nutrition here.

    t-nation - Dissecting the deadlift. Anatomy and Muscle Balancing Videos.

    The street argument is retarded. BJJ is so much overkill for the street that its ridiculous. Unless you're the idiot that picks a fight with the high school wrestling team, barring knife or gun play, the opponent shouldn't make it past double leg + ground and pound - Osiris
  4. polishillusion is offline

    Middleweight

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    Feb 2006
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    Staten Island, NYC
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    1,421

    Posted On:
    9/23/2007 3:54pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Losing Weight

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    TKD only defends against dirty dancing. Hope I never get caught in an underground ballet ring.
  5. Zub-Zub is offline
    Zub-Zub's Avatar

    How do I shot web?

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    498

    Posted On:
    9/23/2007 4:05pm

    supporting member
     Style: JKDC, Kali, Swords

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    My dirty fighting involves tickling.


    Quote Originally Posted by ggboxer
    You know what, the hell with this ****. I'll leave my lame ass bitching ways and suck off the site management as my compliments, but I'll maintain my boobtastic status here always.
  6. AMH is offline

    Registered Member

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    Aug 2007
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    Oklahoma, U.S.A.
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    275

    Posted On:
    9/23/2007 4:06pm


     Style: .45ACP & Confusion

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by kiaiki
    Forget the law - you can't argue about it if you are dead.
    Awesome point!!
    In real fighting there is no such thing as honor.
    I would rather be tried by 12 than carried by 6. :director:
  7. musicalmike235 is offline

    Registered Member

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    Location
    University of South Florida
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    621

    Posted On:
    9/23/2007 4:17pm


     Style: Grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Typically, if you are in a street fight, the adrenaline will be flowing, and you will probably not even have the presence of mind to do your oh-so-potent "dirty tactics". Most street fights are sudden, and often, one of the fighters is taken by surprise.
  8. Ke?poFist is offline
    Ke?poFist's Avatar

    Enforcer of Northeast Anti-Silliness Department Inc.

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    Long Island, NY
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    6,886

    Posted On:
    9/23/2007 4:37pm

    supporting member
     Style: Kaju, BJJ, Judo, Kempo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Norseman, the short answer is, it is far more likely the grappler will be doing such things to you, rather than vice versa.

    In order to do those things you must be in a dominant position and not getting your face pounded in or limbs broken in an inferior position. So if you can't grapple, you can't crapple with teh deadly moves either.
    Knowing is not enough, you must apply...
    ...Willing is not enough you must do
    ~Bruce Lee

  9. kiaiki is offline

    Registered Member

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    UK
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    Posted On:
    9/23/2007 4:39pm


     Style: Aikido Ceteris Paribus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Teh El Macho:

    I don't have all the answers to most of your points, as we are probably all in the position of doing the best we can in very imperfect situations.

    I thought I made it clear that in my view 'dirty' can only apply where fights have rules, certainly not on the street, if you read beyond my first para. I also emphasised cross training , as it is all too easy to become relaxed in the face of familiar attacks.

    However, I made the point that practice for 'the street' assumes that there are no 'dirty' actions - anything goes. You have listed a load of premises that seem to argue with a view I have not expressed, such as that in a dojo we all have exactly the same level of skill and experience of street fights, which is plain daft.

    I also made the point that if we want to try and SIMULATE a no holds barred situation it must involve a great deal of trust so that, whether by tapping out or prior agreement, we fall just short of damaging each other. Your point 4 is probably correct - I have met few skilled martial artists who are experienced in street fighting.

    However, you seem to imply that it's pretty rare to take training close to street fighting with random attacks. I'm a bit nonplussed by that, as I've been smacked in the mouth several times when experimenting and I'm pretty sure many others are also willing to risk a bit of minor injury for the 'aliveness' held so dear by the grapplers amongst us.

    As a kid training in Judo we were forever testing 'what would you do if I ....' scenarios.
    Surely this still goes on. Kids in school fought in all sorts of ways, from the kicking and punching to the wild-eyed random windmill method.

    There is a lot of stuff on Bullshido about 'boxer' versus 'grappler' on the street etc. but IMHO the testing really comes into its own against the wild and untrained frenzy of a nutter.

    You're right, we can't train exactly as we would fight for real, hence the word 'simulation'. We can only do the best we can, so as 'simulation' is what it is, I don't really get your points about it not being real because of x,y and z. What exactly as your point, apart from arguing for the sake of arguing?
  10. Zub-Zub is offline
    Zub-Zub's Avatar

    How do I shot web?

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    Dullsville, Utah
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    498

    Posted On:
    9/23/2007 5:31pm

    supporting member
     Style: JKDC, Kali, Swords

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The secret to streetfighting dirty is to slather crunchy peanut butter under your shirt. Crunchy peanut butter has been shown to have protective qualities, and as long as you have some marshmallow fluff to go with it, victory is assured.


    Quote Originally Posted by ggboxer
    You know what, the hell with this ****. I'll leave my lame ass bitching ways and suck off the site management as my compliments, but I'll maintain my boobtastic status here always.
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