Posted On:10/14/2003 11:17am
Style: BJJ, No-Gi, MT
Secondly what is your training emphasis? If itís stupid bodybuilding, then find out what piz reports.
Doch is right about being certain of your emphasis. Full range of motion squats are good if you're doing light weight and high reps, but if you're doing full range of motion at 315+ lbs. you're asking for knee problems IMO.
For weight training in rugby, we basically only did 1/4 squats with an emphasis on heavy weight. It wasn't necessary for us to work on the full range of motion because most of the strength/endurance we needed came from that top 1/4 range of motion. At the most we'd go 90 degrees (quads parallel to ground).
<hr>"There are some enterprises in which a careful disorderliness is the true method."
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Posted On:10/14/2003 12:04pm
I've come to the thinking that perhaps the best training regimes for martial artists would be those that mimic the methods used by NFL linebackers, balancing speed with strength. 'Course that mainly just plays into my build.
Wastrel's more of a kicker.
Posted On:10/14/2003 10:21pm
Firstly , I think I made it very clear that you you would be doing less weight , and concentrating far more on the Strictness of your Form .
Dochter , you cant Imagine a Martial App ?
Youve never had to geet up off the ground while someone was determined not to let you ?
Posted On:10/15/2003 10:09am
No, instead the apps you are working aren't going to be advanced, IMO, by going past the knees. That range of motion can be worked, perhaps more efficiently, using other lifts. If you significantly reduce the weight to permit your full range of motion you are cheating your quads (which can and should supplementary be worked out, as you mentioned). Instead if you do heavier weights stopping at parrallel you get the benifits of the squat for your quads and can then work out the other muscles of concern secondarily.
Again I too think form is the key and if you don't go "ass to the grass" with heavy weights make sure you are definitly going fully parallel.
Posted On:10/15/2003 10:35am
Style: Shi Ja Quan
Individual flexabilty is very important when you so squats, if by going full, below parallel, your upper body moves to forward and the lower back and knees take most of the stress, go with either a lighter weight and work up to a heavier one or go to the point that is "comfortable" and technique wise, correct, and gradually increase the depth of the squat, some people are so "stiff" in their ankle and knee joint flexability , that they never go full, and unless you are competing in a event that needs to go full depth, don't, untill you are able without feeling pain or losing balance.
Try not to do squats and deadlifts on the same day, it maybe be to taxing for your system and your lower back.
Doing them both will not allow you to acheive the max potential on them, if you do squat first your deadlift will suffer, if you do your deadlift first, your squat will.
The motion of the squat makes the smith machine the wrong apparatus to use.
Barbell inside a power rack is the best and only safe way to do squats, unless you have access to some of the more advance machine out there.
Your stance is VERY important, play around with some foot positions, to find the most comfortable.
Do this with a light weight of course, and always have your feet pointing out slightly.
Books by Stuart McRobert ( beyond brawn) can help you.
Posted On:10/15/2003 1:10pm
pffff, they just said to pretty much breathe more
And the good point was made that it is a new exercise that Wastrel is good, so it will get better in time.
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Posted On:10/15/2003 4:05pm
Style: Electricity, Speed
Yeah, I used to do ass to the grass. Then I realized that I could no longer bend my knees at all. This proved to be detrimental to my training. I started going parallel and within two weeks my knees were fine.
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Posted On:10/22/2003 12:59am
I haven't been here a while.
When did Bullshido's training advice become intelligent ?
(well Doch was always good...)
People are even quoting McRobert!
This stuff isn't that difficult:
This thing was initally designed with the idea that you could get rid of squatters - obviously. The fact it locks you into a specific plane of movement wasn't taken into account.
Squatting on the smith machine, puts excess stress on your lower back and knees, in a way they are not designed to handle.
Damage from the machine is known to be cumulative, its not often it happens quickly. (Although saying that, I did develop lower back pain quickly, thats just me personally though...)
Person A may have a body robust enough that it will never feel the ill effects possible on the machine, person B may not. Its very hard to tell whether your A or B though...
These things really only exist in modern commerical gyms because in reality there is less chance a person in the gym will badly injure themselves instantly on a smith machine as compared to free squatting.
There are only so many floor instructors to walk around checking on people, and no one is going to sue because of damage done over many years - as thats going to be hard to prove, and likely the person is not going to realise what its from. However, they may sue quickly if an instructor gives them free squats and they do something stupid and injure themselves badly.
* * *
There are great benefits to going past parallel.
However, this DOES put more strain on the knee joint.
More strain on the knee joint is not necessarily a bad thing, if your body can take that extra amount.
While you can dig up horror stories, and also 'facts' that prove its okay, damage from ass to floor squats is generally considered to be cumulative, ie. you may not feel it for many years.
Both sides of the story when saying 'I can tell you from personal experience' mean very little. Everyone is different.
So the question is, do you take the risk that in 25 years a medical professional may tell you, you've done damage to your knees, or do you figure that as long as you are careful and use good form, then you'll be okay.
Your choice. There are far worse things you can do in weigh training than ass to floor squats.
The Wastrel - So attractive he HAS to be a woman.
Such as thou art, sometime was I.
Posted On:10/22/2003 1:22am
Style: Brazilian Jiujitsu
Maybe I'm confused about the "Smith Machine". I've never used machines for lifts before so...erp.
I walk in and look at this thing and the bar moves on an inward angle. So I think, "Sheesh, I can lean back into it and isolate quads so my already bowling ball gluteal muscles don't get any more prominent."
Is this not a Smith machine?
Normally, I'd say I was grappling, but I was taking down and mounting people, and JFS has kindly informed us that takedowns and being mounted are neither grappling nor anti grappling, so I'm not sure what the **** I was doing. Maybe schroedinger's sparring, where it's neither grappling nor anti-grappling until somoene observes it and collapses the waveform, and then I RNC a cat to death.----fatherdog
Posted On:10/22/2003 2:33am
"inward angle" ?
are you talking about a tru-squat machine ?
(specifically designed to squat safely...hence its name)
Whats generally called the 'smith machine' has a barbell locked into place (at either end) allowing it to move vertically up and down. No horizontal movement is possible.
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