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  1. Tom Kagan is offline
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    Dark Overlord of the Bullshido Underworld

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    Posted On:
    9/19/2007 11:12am

    supporting member
     Style: Taai Si Ji Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Istislah
    I don't dispute that cultural biases about what constitutes "fair" or "manly" behavior can have profound effects on the growth and character of a fighting style. I'm just not aware of any evidence that there were relevent "anti-grappling"* taboos active in China during the appropriate periods.

    Do you mean to suggest the very fact the Chinese call wrestling "Dog Style" isn't enough?

    Spoiler:
    Comparing someone to a dog in China is one of the lowest of insults.
    Calm down, it's only ones and zeros.

    "Your calm and professional manner of response is really draining all the fun out of this. Can you reply more like Dr. Fagbot or something? Call me some names, mention some sand in my vagina or something of the sort. You can't expect me to come up with reasonable arguments man!" -- MaverickZ

    "Tom Kagan spins in his grave and the fucking guy isn't even dead yet." -- Snake Plissken

    My Bullshido fan club threads:
    Tom Kagan's a big hairy...
    Tom Kagan can lick my BALLS
    Tom Kagan teaches _ing __un and bigotry?
    Tom Kagan: Serious discussion here
    Lamokio asks the burning question is Tom Kagan a ***** or just cruising for some
    I'm Dave the gay Kickboxer from Manchester and I have the hots for Tom Kagan
    TOM KAGAN, OPEN ME, THE MKT ARE COMING FOR YOU ! ARE YOU MAN ENOUGH TO MEET ?
    ATTN TOM KAGAN
    World Dominator 'Kagan' in plot to lie about real Kung Fu and Martial Arts
    Tom Kagan just gave me my third negative rep in a day
    I am infatuated with Tom Kagan
    Tom Kagan is a fat balding white guy.
  2. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/19/2007 11:25am

    staff
     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Istislah

    Can anyone find any evidence of such? There was a general cultural preference against martial arts "practitioners" in China. Primarily for the same reasons that mainstream culture in America looks dimly on MMA fighters and bouncers. When you've got an educated and "sophisticated" culture the mainstream looks down on "thugs".
    Are we really going to go here again? We have said it is our opinion on multiple occasions. I said cultural bias and that I don't know.

    Obviously, that means we have no evidence. Just like you have no other evidence to the contrary.



    A more general taboo against close physical contact could potentally be to blame, as in the "BJJ is gay because it looks like hugging on the ground" idea. This happens in the west because we eroticise physical contact by default- to our culture touching is an inherently sexual act unless strictly limited to firm handshakes and back pounding closed fist hugs. I'm not aware of any evidence that the same is true of Chinese culture; modern or archaic.
    You realize this all has to do with society and culture right? I mean you just asked for proof and then provided your own answers. You also realize that Public displays of affection were frowned upon in some Asian societies at one point right?

    We are discussing possibilities as to why Submissions weren't prevalent in Chinese Martial Arts.

    It is all supposition.

    How many times do we have to say we are guessing? I can't provide proof for a guess just annecdotes.
  3. isol8d is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/19/2007 11:58am


     Style: kung fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Has anybody here read Tim Cartmell's book on the subject?
  4. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/19/2007 12:04pm

    staff
     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    He has many which one?
  5. Istislah is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/19/2007 12:19pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Mantis Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake
    Are we really going to go here again? We have said it is our opinion on multiple occasions. I said cultural bias and that I don't know.

    Obviously, that means we have no evidence. Just like you have no other evidence to the contrary.
    I get that it's your opinion and I'm not expecting or demanding that you "prove" it. You've indicated that it's a guess and that you don't have any evidence. I've indicated that I'm sceptical of that guess in the absence of evidence. Both you and I have taken ourselves out of the running of providing any evidence for a cultural bias against grappling in China during the development of traditional CMA. I was and am still wondering if anyone else has any more specific knowledge. I am in no way claiming that there is some sort of onus on you to provide any evidence.

    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake
    You realize this all has to do with society and culture right? I mean you just asked for proof and then provided your own answers.
    yes I do.

    I asked for more expert knowledge than I can provide about specific taboos or views in Chinese culture over the last ~350 years.

    In the absence of that expert knowledge and by way of explaining my skepticism about the "cultural bias" supposition I offered some thoughts.

    1.
    taboos affecting "acceptable techniques" come from somewhere

    2.
    two possible sources for those taboos are ideas from sport and ideas about the meaning of physical contact.

    3.
    Lei tai, unlike boxing, does not rule out grappling formally so any potential cultural bias against grappling doesn't come from there

    4.
    Western ideas eroticising most physical contact do not apply to traditional chinese culture as far as I know so we cannot map American distaste for sweaty hugging men onto any assumed taboos affecting the development of CMA

    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake
    You also realize that Public displays of affection were frowned upon in some Asian societies at one point right?
    And this is currently pretty true in China as far as I know. This is why I made the point about eroticising physical contact. Grappling can only be discouraged on the grounds of inappropriate intimacy if it is seen by the culture involved as intimacy.

    Point 4 above in no way rules out the existance of a taboo that affected CMA-grappling but the existence of such a taboo in the west isn't really suggestive of a matching taboo in an asian context.

    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake
    We are discussing possibilities as to why Submissions weren't prevalent in Chinese Martial Arts.

    It is all supposition.

    How many times do we have to say we are guessing? I can't provide proof for a guess just annecdotes.
    I entered the discussion to point out the selection that isol8d quoted that translated the chinese as "grabbing" was refering to techniques that aren't submissions or groundwork.

    I'm sceptical of your guess for the reasons stated above but am open to any evidence or supposition that sheds more or different light on the discussion.
  6. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/19/2007 12:35pm

    staff
     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You and your semantical argument. I just said we can't provide evidence for guesses just anecdotes.


    What do you want?

    Tom
    Do you mean to suggest the very fact the Chinese call wrestling "Dog Style" isn't enough?

    Comparing someone to a dog in China is one of the lowest of insults.
    Myself
    You also realize that Public displays of affection were frowned upon in some Asian societies at one point right
    Ming Loyalist
    jack may have some other ideas on this, but i feel that the fact that challenge matches were done on the lei tai platform, and being thrown off of the platform was a way of losing, had a lot to do with this. i think that the general idea was once you had thrown someone, they had already lost, so submission grappling on the ground was not something that was developed very far.
    M1K3
    Another thing to consider with wrestling is that is primarily a rural activity. Grass, dirt, fields are good places for wrestling. For as much as we make fun of the glass and lava comments rolling on cobblestones would not be fun. In addition consider that for a long, long time most cities did not have sewer systems or indoor plumbing. So we are now talking about rolling around in cobblestone lined outhouse. Yuk. In addition in a class based society it would be unseemly to be rolling around on the floor or ground like some unwashed peasant.

    Guesses and discussion. Go look it up no one is saying it can't happen or that we are right. If you are skeptical prove it.
  7. isol8d is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/19/2007 1:47pm


     Style: kung fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake
    He has many which one?
    Method of Chinese Wrestling or Traditional Chinese Submission Grappling Techniques
  8. Jack Rusher is offline
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    Senior Member

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    Posted On:
    9/21/2007 5:26am


     Style: ti da shuai na

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake
    Yeah I've been looking for the link.
    The old manual full of decent Chinese grapple is from a 30's Shanghai police department manual on restraining criminals. It is full of chin na with a few bits taken from Judo and a picture or two of the guard. Cartmell translated it recently, as did another guy, but I haven't gotten hold of it yet. Check Amazon for the cover, description, &c.

    Link here.
    Last edited by Jack Rusher; 9/21/2007 5:30am at . Reason: Added link, fixed decade mistake.
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