218358 Bullies, 6908 online  
  • Register
Our Sponsors:

Results 11 to 20 of 58
Page 2 of 6 FirstFirst 12 3456 LastLast
Sponsored Links Spacer Image
  1. recourse is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Lewisville TX
    Posts
    607

    Posted On:
    9/13/2007 10:20pm


     Style: BJJ / MT

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Eh I'm not really hung up on which style is better or worse. I mean when you come down it to most of the stuff in different styles (that I've seen) look a lot alike. I mean come on how many different ways can someone throw a punch? I would think that theres only so many ways a person can throw another person or do a certain joint lock or submission. I guess it all comes down to the training style of the art in question.
  2. ojgsxr6 is offline

    Dorkus Malorkus

    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Queens, NY
    Posts
    3,008

    Posted On:
    9/13/2007 10:25pm

    supporting member
     Style: Boxing/BJJudo/Crossfit

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake
    It is a part of the whole picture. When you bring multiple opponents, weapons, and warring nations into the mix the last place you want to be is on the ground.
    Why is it that the Japanese (and possibly other cultures) developed ground fighting systems? The Japanese also had multiple opponents, armed confilicts etc.
  3. recourse is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Lewisville TX
    Posts
    607

    Posted On:
    9/13/2007 10:40pm


     Style: BJJ / MT

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hmm ok. Monglian Wrestling seems to follow along with the idea that the object of the match was to throw the other person not submit them on the ground. I just think its odd that such focus on ground submissions wasn't more common place.
  4. recourse is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Lewisville TX
    Posts
    607

    Posted On:
    9/13/2007 10:42pm


     Style: BJJ / MT

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by ojgsxr6
    Even though I've read that feudal era ju jitsuka competed in shiai, I'm sure that the systems were not created to be spectator sports.
    Oh I didn't really think it was more of just a stab in the dark. I've read some places (Tho I might have heard on it human weapon *gasp*) That the English didn't include kicks in boxing because kicking someone seemed unclassy or something along those lines. It Is Fake is most liley correct that their was some culture bias towards fighting on the ground. Maybe at the time in these cultures it was deemed "uncultured". But until someone invents a time machine this is just mental masturbation to me.


    /recourse
  5. It is Fake is offline
    It is Fake's Avatar

    Administrator

    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    33,608

    Posted On:
    9/13/2007 10:58pm

    staff
     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by recourse
    I just think its odd that such focus on ground submissions wasn't more common place.
    Well most wrestling on any Continent on the Earth wouldn't fit your criteria.
  6. Teh El Macho is offline
    Teh El Macho's Avatar

    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Porcupine/Hollywood, FL & Parmistan via Elbonia
    Posts
    11,762

    Posted On:
    9/13/2007 11:14pm

    supporting member
     Style: creonte on hiatus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by recourse
    Hmm ok. Monglian Wrestling seems to follow along with the idea that the object of the match was to throw the other person not submit them on the ground. I just think its odd that such focus on ground submissions wasn't more common place.
    Considering that most forms of wrestling went hand-to-hand with combat applications, one can see why submissions were not that important. Until the invention of gunpower, hand-to-hand combat involved the use of weaponry. Wrestling would take place if a pair of soldiers were to clinch without (by miracle of dumb luck) didn't chop their limbs, crack their heads open or stab themselves with nasty pointy thingies.

    At that point, wrestling would be use to take someone down (or to avoid being taken down) so that one could get away or deliver the finishing blow.

    Let's consider how warfare has been conducted through the ages. Against an individual of equal level, a submission does not come quickly. That doesn't set well with ancient warfare:

    long range: You throw arrows, projectiles or some other nasty **** at each other, while running and closing the distance.

    weapons range: ****, I didn't hit that Mongol with my spear, and so far I haven't been turned into shish-kabob by their bowmen. Ok, time to pull my melee weapon, lift my shield. Here we go (imagine a pair of brutes flinging their **** at each other in close range.

    clinch: ****, how the hell did we got clinched. Oh, no, you won't. **** that you are gonna stab me. Man, I gotta trip him, I gotta trip him, and then I'm gonna hit him with my club thingie.

    to the ground: Oops, I'm down with him. I gotta get up. Where the **** is my shield. Submission? What the **** are you talking about? I have no time for a submission. Where the **** is my shield??? Are those my guts??? ****, I'm fucked.

    I'm just pulling that out of my ass, but it seems to be a entirely pausible explanation.
    Read this for flexibility and injury prevention, this, this and this for supplementation, this on grip conditioning, and this on staph. New: On strenght standards, relationships and structural balance. Shoulder problems? Read this.

    My crapuous vlog and my blog of training, stuff and crap. NEW: Me, Mrs. Macho and our newborn baby.

    New To Weight Training? Get the StrongLifts 5x5 program and Rippetoe's "Starting Strength, 2nd Ed". Wanna build muscle/gain weight? Check this article. My review on Tactical Nutrition here.

    t-nation - Dissecting the deadlift. Anatomy and Muscle Balancing Videos.

    The street argument is retarded. BJJ is so much overkill for the street that its ridiculous. Unless you're the idiot that picks a fight with the high school wrestling team, barring knife or gun play, the opponent shouldn't make it past double leg + ground and pound - Osiris
  7. It is Fake is offline
    It is Fake's Avatar

    Administrator

    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    33,608

    Posted On:
    9/13/2007 11:27pm

    staff
     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hey we are all just guessing. That is the line of reasoning I'm following.
  8. recourse is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Lewisville TX
    Posts
    607

    Posted On:
    9/14/2007 1:22am


     Style: BJJ / MT

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I couldn't agree more. I'd rather have a shield than be sitting around trying to armbar some guy while 500 of his buddies are trying to kill me and my friends.
  9. Jack Rusher is online now
    Jack Rusher's Avatar

    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    2,123

    Posted On:
    9/14/2007 9:20am


     Style: ti da shuai na

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    First, let me say that we're talking about something that lacks sufficient documentation for us to be certain about much. I'm going to put that disclaimer here so I don't have to repeat it below.

    Quote Originally Posted by It Is Fake
    Wrestling was considered a sport and was gay up until recently (like the last decade). Hell we frowned upon wrestling until, it was shown to be somewhat effective against BJJ.
    Wrestling is ancient. It's shown in Chinese and Vietnamese temple carvings, paintings inside Egyptian pyramids, and even in some cave paintings in Africa. Watching other primates fight, children struggle in a playground, and so on, leads me to believe that hominids were wrestling before anatomically modern humans evolved.

    There is some kind of indigenous wrestling system used for sport or warfare pretty much everywhere. Some systems that feature joint lock and strangles, right off the top of my head, include BJJ, Judo, pre-Judo ju jitsu, Muay Pram (Thai grappling), Naban (Burmese groundfighting), Malla-yuddha (Indian wrestling), collar-and-elbow (Western Europe, especially England and Ireland, forerunner of "catch"), the indigenous wrestling systems of the Mandinga and Wolof in Africa, and the old Greek/Balkan/Anatolian styles ("Pankratian"). I feel certain there are more.

    The US and Europe saw a blossoming of submission wrestling at the turn of the 20th century, most of the techniques for which were drawn from Western traditions. It devolved into "professional wrestling" because most fans want a show more than they want real fighting. We're seeing that cycle start again with the rule changes that have been imposed on, for example, the UFC to make it more exciting to watch (let's not argue about whether the current rules are good or bad; not my point at all).

    What we are seeing right now isn't a brand new thing. We're witnessing the cyclic rediscovery of fighting information that has been common knowledge at several points in history.

    Quote Originally Posted by recourse
    You'd just think that someone would say "hey... what happens when they tackle me?"
    Every wrestling system addresses the question of getting tackled, including shuai jiao. Think of some of the professional fighters we've seen who wrestle well enough to keep the fight standing and then KTFO the other guy, like Wanderlei Silva, Cro Cop, and Chuck Liddell. This mode of fighting appears to have been dominant in places where organized warfare was more common (i.e. when someone was likely to stab you with a pike while you were pulling guard on his buddy, just as Macho mentioned).

    Quote Originally Posted by Ming Loyalist
    jack may have some other ideas on this, but i feel that the fact that challenge matches were done on the lei tai platform, and being thrown off of the platform was a way of losing, had a lot to do with this.
    I hadn't thought of this, but it's a really good point. My understanding is that some of the nuances of JJ, and thus Judo, ne-waza (like the guard game, which doesn't appear in any other style) were developed at public dojos during a time of peace in Japan -- that is, for use in one-on-one contests where there were not a bunch of guys with swords involved in the fight. The lei tai ruleset made a bad laboratory for the development of those techniques, which is one possible explanation for why shuai jiao doesn't have them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ming Loyalist
    they have been able to figure out ways to apply their chin na on the ground.
    There's no doubt that ne-waza is wrestling plus chin na. I choose to cross train in BJJ because they've already put 200+ years (JJ -> Judo -> BJJ) into figuring out the right setups and body mechanics to make it all work, and I just don't have that much time to reinvent their wheel from first principles.
Page 2 of 6 FirstFirst 12 3456 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Powered by vBulletin™© contact@vbulletin.com vBulletin Solutions, Inc. 2011 All rights reserved.