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  1. Jack Rusher is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/13/2007 12:17pm


     Style: ti da shuai na

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by ChickenBeakFist
    If that's the case, why not cross-train in Shuai Jiao?
    Shuai jiao is a good throwing system, but it doesn't have proper ne-waza. All Chinese systems dead-end into some variation on knee-on-belly plus chin-na when it comes to the ground (the reasons for which are obscure).
  2. recourse is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/13/2007 9:45pm


     Style: BJJ / MT

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by jackrusher
    Shuai jiao is a good throwing system, but it doesn't have proper ne-waza. All Chinese systems dead-end into some variation on knee-on-belly plus chin-na when it comes to the ground (the reasons for which are obscure).
    I've been wondering about this. I've tried to do a little research on other asian MA's that do ground fighting to the extent that JJ does but can't seem to find any info. Is there any really good reason why Shuai Jiao lacks ground fighting?
  3. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/13/2007 9:46pm

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     Style: xingyi

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    Quote Originally Posted by recourse
    I've been wondering about this. I've tried to do a little research on other asian MA's that do ground fighting to the extent that JJ does but can't seem to find any info. Is there any really good reason why Shuai Jiao lacks ground fighting?
    I wouldn't be surprised if it was some type of cultural bias.
  4. recourse is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/13/2007 9:55pm


     Style: BJJ / MT

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    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake
    I wouldn't be surprised if it was some type of cultural bias.
    Hmm, You'd think that being able to survive in a ground fight would over come any silly bias. I can't believe that fighting was handled so differnet in other Asian countries that once both fighters were on the ground it stopped the fight or they both agreed to just stand it back up. You'd just think that someone would say "hey... what happens when they tackle me?" Ya know?
  5. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/13/2007 10:01pm

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     Style: xingyi

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    Quote Originally Posted by recourse
    Hmm, You'd think that being able to survive in a ground fight would over come any silly bias. I can't believe that fighting was handled so differnet in other Asian countries that once both fighters were on the ground it stopped the fight or they both agreed to just stand it back up. You'd just think that someone would say "hey... what happens when they tackle me?" Ya know?
    Nope.


    How new is BJJ? How long has Judo existed? America has been around for over 200 years and Judo was new in the 1950's. BJJ wasn't widespread until at least 2000. I mean you still have thousands of school still not teaching ground. They are also making **** up. That goes a long way to explain why not.

    Wrestling was considered a sport and was gay up until recently (like the last decade). Hell we frowned upon wrestling until, it was shown to be somewhat effective against BJJ.
    Last edited by It is Fake; 9/13/2007 10:04pm at .
  6. Ming Loyalist is offline
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    solves problems with violence

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    Posted On:
    9/13/2007 10:08pm

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     Style: Judo, Hung Family Boxing

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by recourse
    Hmm, You'd think that being able to survive in a ground fight would over come any silly bias. I can't believe that fighting was handled so differnet in other Asian countries that once both fighters were on the ground it stopped the fight or they both agreed to just stand it back up. You'd just think that someone would say "hey... what happens when they tackle me?" Ya know?
    there is chin na joint locking, but for the most part it is delivered when standing or in a knee on belly position. as far as i can tell there is nothing even close to a guard game in cma.

    jack may have some other ideas on this, but i feel that the fact that challenge matches were done on the lei tai platform, and being thrown off of the platform was a way of losing, had a lot to do with this. i think that the general idea was once you had thrown someone, they had already lost, so submission grappling on the ground was not something that was developed very far.

    i do train with a couple of shuai jiao instructors who also have done plenty of crosstraining in judo and BJJ, and they have been able to figure out ways to apply their chin na on the ground. they have caught me in some weird neck cranks especially.
    "Face punches are an essential character building part of a martial art. You don't truly love your children unless you allow them to get punched in the face." - chi-conspiricy
    "When I was a little boy, I had a sailor suit, but it didn't mean I was in the Navy." - Mtripp on the subject of a 5 year old karate black belt
    "Without actual qualifications to be a Zen teacher, your instructor is just another roundeye raping Asian culture for a buck." - Errant108
    "Seriously, who gives a **** what you or Errant think? You're Asian males, everyone just ignores you, unless you're in a krotty movie." - new2bjj
  7. recourse is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/13/2007 10:10pm


     Style: BJJ / MT

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    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake
    Nope.


    How new is BJJ? How long has Judo existed? America has been around for over 200 years and Judo was new in the 1950's. BJJ wasn't widespread until at least 2000. I mean you still have thousands of school still not teaching ground. They are also making **** up. That goes a long way to explain why not.

    Wrestling was considered a sport and was gay up until recently (like the last decade). Hell we frowned upon wrestling until, it was shown to be somewhat effective against BJJ.
    Good point. You know just sitting here thinking about it.. Unarmed one on one combat wasn't as common as some would think. Even a thousand years ago most fights were handled with using a weapon as such most people didn't really train a lot of unarmed skills. Even warriors must have only learned small bits and pieces because hell when you are on a battlefield the first thing you are going to bring with you is a weapon.


    Edit : I really have no reason for any of the above theories. I am no expert on MA's or fighting in general just something I thought of while sitting here drinking some South Australian wine.


    /recourse
    Last edited by recourse; 9/13/2007 10:15pm at .
  8. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/13/2007 10:14pm

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     Style: xingyi

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    Quote Originally Posted by recourse
    Good point. You know just sitting here thinking about it.. Unarmed one on one combat wasn't as common as some would think. Even a thousand years ago most fights were handled with using a weapon as such most people didn't really train a lot of unarmed skills. Even warriors must have only learned small bits and pieces because hell when you are on a battlefield the first thing you are going to bring with you is a weapon.


    /recourse
    That was going to be my next point. Contrary to what grapplers would have you believe the ground isn't law.

    It is a part of the whole picture. When you bring multiple opponents, weapons, and warring nations into the mix the last place you want to be is on the ground.
  9. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/13/2007 10:16pm

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     Style: xingyi

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ming Loyalist

    jack may have some other ideas on this, but i feel that the fact that challenge matches were done on the lei tai platform, and being thrown off of the platform was a way of losing, had a lot to do with this. i think that the general idea was once you had thrown someone, they had already lost, so submission grappling on the ground was not something that was developed very far.
    Another good point.
  10. ojgsxr6 is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/13/2007 10:17pm

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     Style: Boxing/BJJudo/Crossfit

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I remember Tom Kagan talking about a chinese wrestling style that predates Shuai Jiao. He knows alot more than I do about this so he could easily lie to me and I'd beleive him.

    I don't know what it looks like, I doubt it looked like jiu jitsu.

    I also don't care if it was better, worse, identical to BJJ, Kosen Judo, Judo, or catch wrestling.
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